Car Nack Predicts 2011-1

[EricH]

Car Nack is one of the few strategy gurus with more than one Championship. To be exact, his team has the most Championship wins of any team in FRC.

If Car Nack says something related to strategy, everyone will be well-advised to listen to him.

[Sean Raia]

Woah, thats really... interesting.
So im guessing he made this position based on the time it takes to bring a logo piece across the field multiplied by 18(number of pieces needed to make 6 logos) and divided by 3(number of teams in an alliance) which gives us 6.

(135 in a match) - (15 autonomous) -(10 for end-game).

so 110/6 which lends about 18 seconds to place a piece (to break his prediction). I think Car Nack is pretty darn good at predictions, but fails to account for the possibility of a robot that launchs pieces across the field to their teammates. Still, i have a feeling hes right.

Note: i didnt account for the placing of ubertubes in autonomous which slightly lowers the time frame needed to place 6 logos.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Sean Raia

Woah, thats really... interesting.
So im guessing he made this position based on the time it takes to bring a logo piece across the field multiplied by 18(number of pieces needed to make 6 logos) and divided by 3(number of teams in an alliance) which gives us 6.

(135 in a match) - (15 autonomous) -(10 for end-game).

so 110/6 which lends about 18 seconds to place a piece (to break his prediction). I think Car Nack is pretty darn good at predictions, but fails to account for the possibility of a robot that launchs pieces across the field to their teammates. Still, i have a feeling hes right.

Note: i didnt account for the placing of ubertubes in autonomous which slightly lowers the time frame needed to place 6 logos.

Ubertubes don't count towards making a logo. Also, remember that a robot feeding its partners isn't scoring, and that you have exactly as many tubes as you need to complete both grids. Your feeder better not accidentally hand one off to the other alliance.

Plus, I think your time estimate is off. If you're only leaving 10 seconds for the endgame, you're in trouble. The poles are across the field, and you'd really wanna have time to line up before the last 10 seconds. Cutting 20 seconds off is probably reasonable for top flight teams that'd be trying this. Most teams will probably start setting up at 30 seconds.

[Alpha Beta]

If time is the only reason that 6 logos won't happen, it is worth considering alternate (closer) sources for game pieces. You could steal a game piece from the oponnents lane for a -3 penalty. If that piece then completes a logo on the top row it would gross you an additional 12 points and net you 9 after the penalty (an even bigger point bonus if ubertubes are involved.)

On a side note. It is possible to deploy your mini-bot from your lane where theoretically the defense is forbidden to go. But why wouldn't you take a 3 point penalty to prevent a 30 to 10 point score.

I actually like a game where smart penalties play into strategy. Great job GDC.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

On a side note. It is possible to deploy your mini-bot from your lane where theoretically the defense is forbidden to go. But why wouldn't you take a 3 point penalty to prevent a 30 to 10 point score.

Because it's not just a 3-point penalty. Messing with a robot deploying a minibot, especially if the deploying robot is contacting the base, is an automatic red card if it happens during the end game. No matter if your alliance wins, you don't!

During the end game, that would be a 3-point lane violation, a possible 3-point contact with a robot contacting tower violation, red card for the previous violation being intentional, and a red card for interference with deployment. 3-6 penalty points and 2 red cards for one move that prevents a 10-30 point score. That is not a smart penalty to take.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by EricH

Because it's not just a 3-point penalty. Messing with a robot deploying a minibot, especially if the deploying robot is contacting the base, is an automatic red card if it happens during the end game.

You are absolutely correct that interfering with a robot that is contacting the tower during the end game would be a poor choice. That would be the worst way to interpret the "smart penalty" concept. No one wants any part of a red card. Now defending the robot from getting to the tower even if it means going into the opponent’s lane to do it and eat the -3 is still an option. I expect to see hard defense in the end game. If I can delay a superior mini-bot with a penalty just enough to come in 2nd while my partner comes in first that is a 7 point swing, even more if I can delay him enough to not reach the top. Can you do that without drawing a red-card? Up until <G23> and <G25> comes into play.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

You are absolutely correct that interfering with a robot that is contacting the tower during the end game would be a poor choice. That would be the worst way to interpret the "smart penalty" concept. No one wants any part of a red card. Now defending the robot from getting to the tower even if it means going into the opponent’s lane to do it and eat the -3 is still an option. I expect to see hard defense in the end game. If I can delay a superior mini-bot with a penalty just enough to come in 2nd while my partner comes in first that is a 7 point swing, even more if I can delay him enough to not reach the top. Can you do that without drawing a red-card? Up until <G23> and <G25> comes into play.

If they touch the tower at any point during the end game, it's an automatic 3-point penalty in addition to any lane penalty. If the refs deem that you are interfering with deployment (i.e., they're starting to swing a deployment arm, and you hit them or shove them, even if contact was already begun), it's an automatic red card.

Up until the endgame, it's a viable strategy. But if you're doing that, I'll go do the same thing to one of your partners, or make a logo.

I also have another couple of tricks that could get me first in the minibot race despite your defense. And trust me, they'll be used by somebody. Smoke screens aren't always smoke...sometimes they're mirrors.

[Sean Raia]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Ubertubes don't count towards making a logo. Also, remember that a robot feeding its partners isn't scoring, and that you have exactly as many tubes as you need to complete both grids. Your feeder better not accidentally hand one off to the other alliance.

Plus, I think your time estimate is off. If you're only leaving 10 seconds for the endgame, you're in trouble. The poles are across the field, and you'd really wanna have time to line up before the last 10 seconds. Cutting 20 seconds off is probably reasonable for top flight teams that'd be trying this. Most teams will probably start setting up at 30 seconds.

Well considering at least one robot wont spend any time doing the end-game and will likely be placing the pieces on the rack during it i would say that affects it as well.

With the shortage of pieces... you'd have to lose three of the same shape to not be able to make six logos. And this is assuming the other team doesn't lose any.

But you're right, i didn't consider the set-up time prior to the endgame.
Keeping that in mind, under perfect conditions with all teams on your alliance in full gear you would likely need to place a piece every 11 seconds(this is assuming you have a feeding robot who is not placing pieces)...
This in itself seems impossible but like i said, with a REALLY good feeding robot and two fast placer robots Car Nacks NEVER can be turned into an ALMOST NEVER

These time estimates are very rough, but its interesting to think about.

[EricH]

Sean, to not make 6 logos, you only have to lose one piece. Your Feeders only have 3 logos apiece, and you only have two Feeders. 6 Logos. I swipe a miss and put it in my zone, and suddenly you can't make 6 without taking any of mine. I swipe more than that, and you have a much harder time, because now you have to take those pieces away from me--and if I'm smart, I keep those in reserve if I can.

[Sean Raia]

Originally Posted by EricH

Sean, to not make 6 logos, you only have to lose one piece. Your Feeders only have 3 logos apiece, and you only have two Feeders. 6 Logos. I swipe a miss and put it in my zone, and suddenly you can't make 6 without taking any of mine. I swipe more than that, and you have a much harder time, because now you have to take those pieces away from me--and if I'm smart, I keep those in reserve if I can.

Ahh, i had my numbers wrong on the pieces that the feeders were given.

[flyingcrayons]

i cant wait to see if your prediction is correct!

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

'07 was a rather lot easier than '11, though. Here's the rundown of what makes hanging lots harder this year:

1. You have to hang 12 tubes for this challenge, not 10.

[snip]

It's actually 18 tubes, not 12. And beyond that, hanging 18 tubes (filling up all your scoring pegs) isn't the same as making 6 logos, either.