Kinect + DS + Autonomous = Controlled auton?

[mobilegamer999]

Bringing up just a thought here. If a team had a kinect on the driver station, then technically would the Analyst be able to control the robot using the kinect. The reason I am saying the analyst, is that the definition of Autonomous Perios is as follows

AUTONOMOUS PERIOD – DRIVER control of the ROBOT is not permitted at this time. During this period, the ROBOTS may react only to sensor inputs and commands programmed into the onboard control system. All ROBOT safety rules are still applicable during the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD.

And the definition of DRIVER obviously being the 2 drivers, which leaves it open to the coach and the analyst. The coach has no allowance of control as supported by the definition of COACH. However the Analyst is not denied control based on his definition.

The only rule that I believed would combat this is

<G56> During a MATCH, the OPERATOR CONSOLE shall be operated solely by the DRIVERS of that TEAM.
Violation: Disablement and RED CARD

So it basically becomes whats the definition of operating (touching vs interacting) because the kinect is obviously a wireless device.

*NOTE*:was not planing on using this in competition, just thought it would be an interesting concept to think about.

[Tom Line]

I suspect you would very quickly be ruled illegal. I know of one team that attempted this using ultrasonic sensors on their drivers station. The refs told them to turn it off because they were clearly violating the intent of the autonomous period.

[Ethliel]

You've already answered this question yourself.
The robot can only be controlled by its own sensors and onboard programming, as stated in the rules. It cannot receive information from a kinect system attached to the driver station, thus, cannot be controlled by anyone.

[mobilegamer999]

Originally Posted by Ethliel

You've already answered this question yourself.
The robot can only be controlled by its own sensors and onboard programming, as stated in the rules. It cannot receive information from a kinect system attached to the driver station, thus, cannot be controlled by anyone.

Well the kinect IS a sensor, and the rule doesn't specify where the sensor needs to go (robot/DS)

[alectronic]

It doesn't really matter because we all know that the intent of the auto period is to not have control, and besides, what would you be feeding it? It seems like a relatively straight forward auto period this year.

[mobilegamer999]

Like i stated, I was not intending to ACTUALLY use this, just was making a not of the doability (not the plausability) of this.

[Ryan Gordon]

I highly doubt you will be able to get the Kinect to run through the cRIO (without a lotttt of effort and a physical USB controller)

[Nadav Zingerman]

It is illegal to have the Kinect communicate wirelessly as per <R52> :

<R52> One D-Link DAP-1522 is the only permitted mechanism for communicating to and from the
ROBOT during the MATCH. All signals must originate from the OPERATOR CONSOLE
and/or the Field Management System, and be transmitted to the ROBOT via the official
ARENA hardware. No other form of wireless communications shall be used to communicate
to, from or within the ROBOT (e.g. radio modems from previous FIRST competitions and
Bluetooth devices are not permitted on the ROBOT during competition).

In addition the FMS enforces clean Autonomous periods by not sending through any wireless communication from the DS during autonomous. Given this, I think that using a Kinect in autonomous is impossible.

However, in my short research I did find a loophole that could be used to "lawyer" the rules: The OPERATOR CONSOLE is defined as:

OPERATOR CONSOLE – the collection of the hardware used to run the Driver Station software and
any associated equipment, control interfaces, display systems, structure, decorations, etc. used by
the DRIVERS to operate the ROBOT.

Therefore, anything used by someone else (ex. Analyst) to operate the robot is not part of the OPERATOR CONSOLE, and thus not subject to <G56>:

<G56> During a MATCH, the OPERATOR CONSOLE shall be operated solely by the DRIVERS of
that TEAM.
Violation: Disablement and RED CARD

So, though clearly not the intent, It may be legal. The technical argument against the idea still stands, so it's probably a non-issue anyway.

[MaxKinect]

Team 494 (Bill Maxwell) has been working with Kinect since its introduction

One Handed Kinect FPS Hack - Better Than Mouse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j9UhxtmWmA

This is a device driver that is designed to replace a controller.
It will work on the drive station and provide joystick info to the driver station program which will be sent to the crio.
The minimum distance the sensor will work is 17 inches; therefore the sensor must be elevated above the drive station pointed downward.
This means that only the drivers can control the robot using the kinect.
This makes the kinect legal for the drive station.

Field use is possible, but might have some problems.
First the sensor is super safe in its light output, 8 million units have been sold to be used by children standing in front and looking straight at sensor.
A laptop can be used on the robot, the kinect sensor is connected to the usb port on the laptop, its extra 12volts can be supplied by the robot battery.
It is very legal to connect a laptop to the crio's network port.
This gives you unlimited programming possibilities.

Now for the field use problems:
Based on our test the sensor will work to about 28 feet in low light.
If the sensor is moved outside into the sunlight its range drops to less than 4 feet.
Different events will have different lighting, how much this will affect the kinect is unknown, and any modification of the kinect light output would make its safety unknown and therefore very illegal.

The next problem is that multiple Kinects used on the field could interfere with each other. People testing this find the interference low with 3 units, but what if everyone on the field is using kinect?

The final problem is that FIRST may just say NO.

I hope everyone will work toward making depth sensors standard for FIRST, because they are the future of robotics.

[MaxKinect]

Team 494 (Bill Maxwell) has been working with Kinect since its introduction

One Handed Kinect FPS Hack - Better Than Mouse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j9UhxtmWmA

This is a device driver that is designed to replace a controller.
It will work on the drive station and provide joystick info to the driver station program which will be sent to the crio.
The minimum distance the sensor will work is 17 inches; therefore the sensor must be elevated above the drive station pointed downward.
This means that only the drivers can control the robot using the kinect.
This makes the kinect legal for the drive station.

Field use is possible, but might have some problems.
First the sensor is super safe in its light output, 8 million units have been sold to be used by children standing in front and looking straight at sensor.
A laptop can be used on the robot, the kinect sensor is connected to the usb port on the laptop, its extra 12volts can be supplied by the robot battery.
It is very legal to connect a laptop to the crio's network port.
This gives you unlimited programming possibilities.

Now for the field use problems:
Based on our test the sensor will work to about 28 feet in low light.
If the sensor is moved outside into the sunlight its range drops to less than 4 feet.
Different events will have different lighting, how much this will affect the kinect is unknown, and any modification of the kinect light output would make its safety unknown and therefore very illegal.

The next problem is that multiple Kinects used on the field could interfere with each other. People testing this find the interference low with 3 units, but what if everyone on the field is using kinect?

The final problem is that FIRST may just say NO.

I hope everyone will work toward making depth sensors standard for FIRST, because they are the future of robotics.