Kinect is Legal for Both Drive Station and Field Use (Here’s why)

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Bongle

It sends a bunch of IR dots (normal light, not lasers)...

The Kinect depth sensor uses an IR laser to generate those dots. That runs afoul of the FRC robot rules.

[IndySam]

This would be a good question for the GDC. Because of the type of low power IR laser you may get an exception.

[MaxKinect]

I check my Kinect and found it to have a Class 1 safty rating

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety#Class_1

Class 1 LASER PRODUCT
A class 1 laser is safe under all conditions of normal use.

I will ask the GDC.

But just in case there is a problem,

I checked on the Kinect IR Emitter and found to run at the same frequency as tv remotes 830nm with a static image generated by a 30000 point caustic patterend grate. Would it be possible to replace the Kinect IR Emitter with a standard IR led of the same power ratting. FIRST uses IR leds everwhere.

What do you think?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by MaxKinect

Would it be possible to replace the Kinect IR Emitter with a standard IR led of the same power ratting.

No. An incoherent light source would not work with the pattern grating. It must be a laser.

(Perhaps a "QWLED" device that I remember reading about a couple of decades ago would work. It produced coherent but highly divergent light, suitable for tabletop holography. I never heard about it again, so perhaps it never made it to an actual product.)

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by MaxKinect

I will ask the GDC.

When you ask, you may want to differentiate between use on the ROBOT and use on the OPERATOR CONSOLE.

[Ryan Gordon]

Even if it is legal, it shouldn't be. Too many Kinect's on the field could definitely cause too much interference and unexpected results. The Kinect operates on a 830nm wavelength (near the wavelength of a laser mouse) uniformly across ALL Kinect's manufactured so therefore if at any point during the match if the 830nm projections are projected onto other projections or if projections are projected on top of other projections there will be interference. The more Kinect's in one area, the higher the chance of interference. There are also other things to worry about such as IR-absorbent material on the field and such, not even to mention the difficulties you will have in getting the Kinect to work through the cRIO.

All the information you will ever want: http://openkinect.org/wiki/Hardware_info

[MaxKinect]

Even if it is legal, it shouldn't be. Too many Kinect's on the field could definitely cause too much interference and unexpected results

Because the Kinect controller uses a pattern match on a non-repeating caustic pattern it is very resistant to interference. When there is a problem, the area of the problem is marked with a 'unknown' depth code (2047).

When we use a standard light camera there are hundreds of interference artifacts each frame that must be filtered out, this is not needed with the kinect.

We have tried to use sonar sensors in the past, but everything interferes with them.

There are also other things to worry about such as IR-absorbent material on the field

Our testing so far has found only mirrors to be a problem. Carpet, the logo tubes and other robots (we have lots of them) image very well.

not even to mention the difficulties you will have in getting the Kinect to work through the cRIO.

This is no problem at all; we can use laptops on our robots this year. Kinect runs very well in both windows 7 and XP. We also can connect the laptop to the crio's second network port.


This is my seventh year as mentor in FIRST, this is the first time it is possible to use leading edge tech in our robot. We may not make it to the field because of FIRST stopping up, but we will not stop trying to make the best robot possible. We will be able to use our new tech in off season competitions and most importantly demonstrations to new students and sponsors.

This is the begining of new age, the natural computer (robot) interface.

[davidthefat]

Oh, what would be the advantage of a kinect over a regular old joystick?

Oh and good luck with autonomy with a kinect. Have fun trying to communicate with the cRio efficiently enough so that you can rotate the Kinect and not sacrifice precious clock cycles.

[MaxKinect]

Oh, what would be the advantage of a kinect over a regular old joystick?

This is a very good question.

We will program our drive station to use both a XBOX controller and the Kinect. (Not at the same time) Based on years of using a joystick (Xbox controller) we know how it works. The Kinect interface will be a totally new adventure. Our goal will be to make a natural interface in which anyone can walk up and drive our robot. This may not be possible in 5 weeks, it may never be possible.

Oh and good luck with autonomy with a kinect. Have fun trying to communicate with the cRio efficiently enough so that you can rotate the Kinect and not sacrifice precious clock cycles.

The kinect on the field may not be a good choice for this game. We will find out by trying both a standard camera and the Kinect (depth sensor).

As for the cRio precious clock cycle, if we off load the visual processing to a laptop and use C++ in the cRio there will be lots of unused cRio cycles.

[winglerw28]

I feel like this is more cool-factor than anything else, and in my opinion isn't worth hassling FIRST and wasting time over. Sure you could use a Kinect, but you could also just program a camera or two more efficiently.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by MaxKinect

This is a very good question.

We will program our drive station to use both a XBOX controller and the Kinect. (Not at the same time) Based on years of using a joystick (Xbox controller) we know how it works. The Kinect interface will be a totally new adventure. Our goal will be to make a natural interface in which anyone can walk up and drive our robot. This may not be possible in 5 weeks, it may never be possible.



The kinect on the field may not be a good choice for this game. We will find out by trying both a standard camera and the Kinect (depth sensor).

As for the cRio precious clock cycle, if we off load the visual processing to a laptop and use C++ in the cRio there will be lots of unused cRio cycles.

Yes, the laptop would get the image input and process it, but you would then have to transfer that data to the cRio and then the cRio has to move the motors and ect. I honestly do not think one has to invest a $100 for a kinect but rather just invest $20 on a pair of low end webcams.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Yes, the laptop would get the image input and process it, but you would then have to transfer that data to the cRio and then the cRio has to move the motors and ect. I honestly do not think one has to invest a $100 for a kinect but rather just invest $20 on a pair of low end webcams.

David, I would be very interested in seeing you develop a system out of two webcams that provides the kinect's capabilities. I suspect the engineers at any of the large console suppliers like Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo would be equally as interested.

Max, as I understand it the IR lasers extend out in a spread pattern. The provide full depth information at thousands of points and combine that with full color video. The Kinect does not just take 2 dimensional pictures of things. It provides distances, widths, heights, and all at a speed that can record high speed movement in real time and reconcile that with a full color picture. This system could be used in FIRST to emulate the Lidar used on so many DARPA vehicles for full field navigation.

Indeed, David, this system would be ideal for a fully autonomous robot. How's that going, by the way?

The software and hardware has already been developed by thousands of engineers over a number of years, using technology by many different countries. It works in ANY ambient light condition because of the IR - even in nearly pitch black. It's accurate from around 1.5 feet to 20 feet - 1/3 of one of our fields.

Max, that's really pretty exciting stuff. The year you put one of these on the robots and use it in autonomous is the year you win the innovation award available at every competition you attend. Awesome. I'm sorry to see FIRST rule it out this year, though I can't see that rule in place for long.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Yes, the laptop would get the image input and process it, but you would then have to transfer that data to the cRio and then the cRio has to move the motors and ect. I honestly do not think one has to invest a $100 for a kinect but rather just invest $20 on a pair of low end webcams.

David, I would be very interested in seeing you develop a system out of two webcams that provides the kinect's capabilities. I suspect the engineers at any of the large console suppliers like Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo would be equally as interested.

Max, as I understand it the IR lasers extend out in a spread pattern. The provide full depth information at thousands of points and combine that with full color video. The Kinect does not just take 2 dimensional pictures of things. It provides distances, widths, heights, and all at a speed that can record high speed movement in real time and reconcile that with a full color picture. This system could be used in FIRST to emulate the Lidar used on so many DARPA vehicles for full field navigation.

Indeed, David, this system would be ideal for a fully autonomous robot. How's that going, by the way?

The software and hardware has already been developed by thousands of engineers over a number of years, using technology by many different countries. It works in ANY ambient light condition because of the IR - even in nearly pitch black. It's accurate from around 1.5 feet to 20 feet - 1/3 of one of our fields.

Max, that's really pretty exciting stuff. The year you put one of these on the robots and use it in autonomous is the year you win the innovation award available at every competition you attend. Awesome. I'm sorry to see FIRST rule it out this year, though I can't see that rule in place for long.

[GregH]

I don't think I'd use it for driver station control but Kinect is incredibly exciting a robotics sensor. I would really like to use it in future years. I really hope next year we can make this happen.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

<R02> ROBOT parts shall not be made from hazardous materials, be unsafe, or cause an unsafe condition. Items specifically prohibited from use on the ROBOT include (but are not limited to):

C. Any devices or decorations specifically intended to jam or interfere with the remote sensing capabilities of another robot,including vision systems, acoustic range finders, sonars, infra-red proximity detectors, etc.(e.g. including imagery on your robot that, to a reasonably astute observer, mimics the VISION TARGET)
D. Exposed lasers of any type (COTS devices with completely enclosed integral lasers, such as a laser ring gyro, are permitted)

This kind of says it all doesn't it?