2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative

[elemental]

Originally Posted by MadeAtMidnight

Overheard at one of the fields in the pits: "We invited all our sponsors, where are they supposed to sit?"

We had this problem also. Although one of our sponsors was able to get a seat, the team in front of us sitting in the first two rows stood through about 1.5 matches blocking the view of the field entirely.

To be fair, my team did stand but only when we were announced.

[BJC]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

It seems to me that parents are more or less the problem.
They are very aggressive about protecting the interests of their own team instead of the values of FIRST,
My team was denied a place to sit twice by two different teams. I told them just take them off your list (ironically one we ended up working with in the elims and the other was never on our list in the first place).
Apparently FIRST has some sort of Poor Behaviour Reporting Forum to turn in when these things happen. So what is a civillian supposed to do when they show up and are rejected and ejected by an overzealous and territorial team? Maybe Dean needs to make nipping this behavior in the bud homework for the teams.

First off I enjoyed working with your team in eliminations. I have reasonable certainty that you are referencing my team above. We have a big team, and at this perticular event we had a large amount of parents and grandparents. Despite, I'm sorry if my team was withholding seats. I was not actually in the stands except for our own matches. However, it was clear to me that my team had taken over a significant amount of seats-- too many to not share. I can assure you that I'll be bringing up the issue at our next meeting to ensure that it does not happen again. I hope this does not too badly tarnish our reputation with you, we strive as a team to not only get along with other teams but to build bridges and relationships that will last. After all, competition is much more fun when you're in the company of friends.

Sorry again, Bryan

[Bjenks548]

I enjoyed Logomotion a ton.
-Important autonomous with the right amount of difficulty vs points
-Exciting teleop as teams developed strategies and defense increased
-End game was fun... in qualifications
I enjoyed the minibot race in qualifications because everyone thought theirs was faster. Unfortunately this stopped in eliminations. After the first match of 3 it became apparent who would win the minibot race, this was boring to me as I knew who would win and who would get the points.
Championship I missed Atlanta's Olympic park more then anything else, I wish St. Louis had a close park but it was fun anyway.

[Debbie]

Originally Posted by BJC

First off I enjoyed working with your team in eliminations. I have reasonable certainty that you are referencing my team above. We have a big team, and at this perticular event we had a large amount of parents and grandparents. Despite, I'm sorry if my team was withholding seats. I was not actually in the stands except for our own matches. However, it was clear to me that my team had taken over a significant amount of seats-- too many to not share. I can assure you that I'll be bringing up the issue at our next meeting to ensure that it does not happen again. I hope this does not too badly tarnish our reputation with you, we strive as a team to not only get along with other teams but to build bridges and relationships that will last. After all, competition is much more fun when you're in the company of friends.

Sorry again, Bryan

I came in with several of our JFLL team and their parents to watch our first match on the pit field and was disheartened to find no seats available. My team was scattered all over just to sit. I saw a big opening in the bees section and asked if we could sit for this match and was told we were welcome to sit there. Your team made space for about 15 of my team members that came with me. I was very appreciative for this!

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

We were asked to clear the pits friday morning for opening ceremonies, to which i responded by pulling out a manual and having a civil discussion with the volunteer regarding the actual rules pertaining to said events.

In the "At the events" section of the manual

4.10.1 All Teams Should Attend
We encourage all team members to attend the ceremonies, on time, to show appreciation for the event and those people involved who are volunteering their time and efforts.

4.10.2 Pit Manners/Rules During the Ceremonies
- Team members will not be allowed to use power tools, hammers or other noisy tools during the ceremonies.
- All persons in the Pit should observe the code of behavior for the presentation of all national anthems:
o Maintain a respectful silence;
o Stand, facing the flag. If there is no flag, look toward the video screen showing a flag; and
o ALL hats off please.

The volunteer then took the manual back to his superior and returned to us informing us we would be allowed to stay as long as we followed the listed rules, which we did.

This same situation happened in Wisconsin only I wasn't as well versed on that section of the manual, lesson learned.

At no point does it say "empty the pits" or "only two people" or half the other things being told to teams, and this goes for every event.

I thoroughly thanked the volunteer for participating in a healthy discussion and taking to correct course of action, which is more than can be said for some other encounters we've had this season.

If my robot is operating 100%, I'll be at the ceremonies, if it is not then it has my attention until it is. This is how I believe it should stay as it is disrespectful to a team who has put in countless hours constructing it to not allow allotted(1) time to make sure it is working properly.

(1) The champs agenda says Pits open at 7:15am and close at 8pm, I count this as allotted pit time

This was more of a positive at champs, but is in response to a post here.

Thank you for the response, Aren. However, now I have to wonder why the opening ceremonies weren't broadcast in the pits. The reason that I was given was that it was because everyone was supposed to be in the dome, and if that is the reason, then that's an issue in itself.

-----

Sound during the concert: Just to throw another experience into the pool, I was on the floor and the only issue I experienced was the incredibly booming bass towards the end. As soon as my clothes and internal organs started shaking, I immediately felt bad for the older members of the audience, particularly the VIPs who were in the stands behind me. If I could barely stand the bass, how were they feeling? In regards to sound, I was able to clearly hear everything that was said. Some sections not being able to understand the words that were being spoken might have been a venue/acoustics issue, not an issue with the concert itself.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

My team was denied a place to sit twice by two different teams.

I don't believe I have ever tried to sit in the stands at an FRC event when I haven't had some parent or kid tell me I had to move -- stretching back to the 2005 Portland tournament when I nearly got into a shoving match with a parent who was trying to order my 12-year-old son to move. It is BY FAR the worst part of going to an FRC tournament, and I have no idea what to do about it. (Unless you happen to go to an old-school event where the music is so loud your ears bleed. That's worse. Fortunately, either my hearing has degraded or the music isn't played as loud as it used to be. )

I've only ever had this problem at one VRC/FVC/FTC event, and that was in Atlanta in 2008 when a home school group camped out in the first two rows and didn't move for two straight days -- making sure to leave coats, backpacks, and other stuff in unused seats to make sure no one else took "their" seats. Other than that, small robot crowds just aren't as obnoxious.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I've commented on Champs elsewhere, so more generally, I think inspection still needs some work. Specifically, I think things tend to get overlooked or given a pass in the name of getting robots on the field and letting teams play. Which is fine and all, but a bit irksome to teams that actually try to comply with the rules. I've since forgotten things I noticed at the regionals, but I recall a team in Curie running with black bumpers when they were a blue team. Black bumpers with red numbers.

Something's wrong with inspections if a team apparently gets passed out of a regional with illegal bumpers and without a note that they need fixing. And then gets passed through inspections at Championships with, presumably, the same illegal bumpers.

I know inspectors are busy and have a lot to do, but I still find it hard to believe a team was playing at Champs with such a blatantly illegal robot.

[Gdeaver]

Comment on the electronics. I heard the words " lost coms " way to much. The whole FMS - robot communication system needs some revue. What caused the problems and how can they be improved for next year.

We had several Jag failures this year. So have other teams. Come on TI. Make these things reliable. My one comment on what may help - SMBJ30. Can has the allure of increased functionality. However, there seams to be a few land mines that teams step on when they try to go can buss. Can the can be made bullet proof for 2012? If the victors were more linear we would have used them.

First relaxed the pneumatic rules a little. That's great but safety must be maintained. We used the plastic air tanks. We needed big air storage. I question the ratings of these. Would they pass an ASME or testing lab testing? We may have been driving around with 2 fragmentation grenades. First made it clear that they want to limit the air volume to cylinders. The way they defined the limit makes it very tough for inspectors to know if a teams valves are legal. Maybe they should list manufactures valve series and manifolds that meet their standard. This would make it easy for the inspectors. If it's on the list it's OK.

[Jim Wilks]

Originally Posted by elemental

the team in front of us sitting in the first two rows stood through about 1.5 matches blocking the view of the field entirely.

To be fair, my team did stand but only when we were announced.

We had some of this as well. The team in front of us insisted in standing for the duration of every match they were involved in. This level of inconsideration of others is what really irks me.

[Taylor]

We've been at this for twenty years. Why are people still calling it "Nationals"?

Not only is it disrespectful to the non-US teams, it's demeaning to the competition itself. One of the speakers on Saturday mentioned how taken aback he was by the number of flags above the stage. Even Dean looked up with awe. What an amazing accomplishment for FIRST, and what an amazing accomplishment for all who travel to the Championship event, and what an incredible accomplishment for those who win!

It's not Nationals. It's Worlds. Or, even better, The CHAMPionship.

[sdcantrell56]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I've commented on Champs elsewhere, so more generally, I think inspection still needs some work. Specifically, I think things tend to get overlooked or given a pass in the name of getting robots on the field and letting teams play. Which is fine and all, but a bit irksome to teams that actually try to comply with the rules. I've since forgotten things I noticed at the regionals, but I recall a team in Curie running with black bumpers when they were a blue team. Black bumpers with red numbers.

Something's wrong with inspections if a team apparently gets passed out of a regional with illegal bumpers and without a note that they need fixing. And then gets passed through inspections at Championships with, presumably, the same illegal bumpers.

I know inspectors are busy and have a lot to do, but I still find it hard to believe a team was playing at Champs with such a blatantly illegal robot.

A team in Newton was using a van door motor to power their arm. It was quite prominently displayed as well. When this is happening I think it's time that the number of teams at the Championship event was pared down to be more competitive and cut out a lot of the filler. Maybe then FIRST wouldn't have to relegate to fields to the pits ( an entirely different issue). It is a bit frustrating seeing things like this getting passed and then our robot is run over with a fine tooth comb.

[Debbie]

Originally Posted by jgw

We had some of this as well. The team in front of us insisted in standing for the duration of every match they were involved in. This level of inconsideration of others is what really irks me.

Maybe a solution to saving seats could be something quite simple. If FIRST saved the first 4 or 5 rows across the bottom of the playing field and allowed teams to sit there during their matches, teams would always get front row seats for their own matches. Then, if the team wanted to stand (I like my team standing to cheer on their team, they cheer louder - and one could argue it is disrespectful to your team not to stand and cheer for them - it's a no-win either way I think), they could stand on the floor and bottom bleacher and there would still be space above them for the crowd to see over them. Teams wouldn't be in such a hurry to get into the stands because they would always be guaranteed a spot in the front to watch their team. Plus, if they put red on one side and blue on the other, you would always be near your alliance to cheer. Would certainly have helped in the pit fields and I think would help in all venues! When it boils down to it, everyone just wants to see and cheer for their team. People wouldn't be so possessive of stand space if they knew their team members working in the pit would have a spot to sit in when they came to cheer. Just a thought!

[MikeE]

Originally Posted by sdcantrell56

A team in Newton was using a van door motor to power their arm. It was quite prominently displayed as well. When this is happening I think it's time that the number of teams at the Championship event was pared down to be more competitive and cut out a lot of the filler. Maybe then FIRST wouldn't have to relegate to fields to the pits ( an entirely different issue). It is a bit frustrating seeing things like this getting passed and then our robot is run over with a fine tooth comb.

If you see something that is questionable (or clearly illegal) like this, please tell an Inspector, preferably the Lead Robot Inspector for your division. This is especially important if the issue might have safety implications.
I understand that it seems like "informing" but it's in everyone's interests to have a safe and fair competition.

[Mike Rush]

I've been going to FIRST competitions for 14 years. I've been to Nationals 11 times, twice as a spectator. These are my observations for year 1 in St Louis.

(1) Pit Organization and Signage - Woefully poor. I had a team list, a pit map, and was seeking out a number of specific teams to contact and I still could not find my way around easily. I can't even imagine what that must have been like for the uninitiated. Having the division pits split was just plain stupid.

I believe the ultimate reason for the poor organization was the inclusion (relocation in my opinion) of the playing fields from the dome to the pits. A monumentally bad idea. I don't care who the 'performing act' is. Work within the spirit of the competition or hit the proverbial bricks. This is not the venue for a bunch of singers making demands on the organization.

(2) Pit Numbering - Lesson lost. Pit numbering such that rookie teams are interspersed with the veteran teams really helps out young teams. As a young team at nationals for the first time, having a veteran team on both sides can be a great help. Clumping all the rookies teams at the far end of the pits really leaves them a little isolated and reduces the interactions with the more seasoned teams.

(3) Seating - Poor, especially at the fields not in the dome. (already beat to death)

(3) Front Doors - What was up with that? Half the doors were locked but once you made your way to the open doors and entered the building, you could walk (back in the direction you just came from) to those same doors. Utterly stupid.

(4) I heard from several (unnamed and very seasoned) mentors whose comments went something like this: "I think that FIRST has started to believe their own hyped press. Making space for the concert at the expense of the competition was a real blunder. If you want to really change the culture, why would you allow a bunch of 'popular culture figures' to dictate the terms of their appearance?"

In closing, the real lessons of St Louis year one had nothing to do with any competition related shortcomings. The real lesson will be the concert and how it impacted the event.

The 'Black Eyed Peas" concert displacing competition event activities will go down as one of two things; either a realization by FIRST that they screwed up by becoming wrapped up in popular culture or the beginning of the end of FIRST as a mechanism whose primary goal is to change the culture.

[sdcantrell56]

Originally Posted by MikeE

If you see something that is questionable (or clearly illegal) like this, please tell an Inspector, preferably the Lead Robot Inspector for your division. This is especially important if the issue might have safety implications.
I understand that it seems like "informing" but it's in everyone's interests to have a safe and fair competition.

Them using a van door motor was not unsafe and certainly did not give them a performance advantage ( they were pretty much uncompetitive). It just bothers me that at an event that is supposed to be the Championship even with theoretically the best teams there are still plenty of teams who cannot play the game or who come in with blatantly illegal motors. Perhaps FIRST should start considering making Champs more of an elite event, although I certainly won't hold my breathe for that to happen.

Along the same lines, consistent inspection would be a nice thing. I understand the desire of many inspectors to not keep teams from playing but it leads to some very questionable things allowed through. It doesn't help my confidence in the program either knowing that if you're not one of the better teams you can slide by.