build season needs to be longer.

[Joe G.]

The world is not out of pneumatic wheels. I can drive down to my local harbor freight and pick up plenty right now.

One of the cool things about FIRST is that it's an open materials competition. We don't have to use a specific wheel from a supplier who caters specifically to FRC -- we can put any wheel we want to on the robot. And maybe take the opportunity to give students a taste of how it was back in the seasons of yesteryear, when you couldn't buy everything with 1/2" hex bore+1.875" bolt circles, and had to use some creativity to make it work on the robot. The real world doesn't snap together easily.

[nuggetsyl]

IMO we could just announce the game and never do the bag and tag part of it.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by nuggetsyl

IMO we could just announce the game and never do the bag and tag part of it.

That's a new idea

[IronicDeadBird]

6 weeks is a big commitment students. The way it is lined up right now for the school I mentor is that the entire season is nestled in between the end of winter break, and the start of spring break. I'd have to pull a calendar to see if there even was a bigger period of time that could be utilized. I mean I guess you could cut into summer and do post spring break well into summer, or summer into fall. Anyway I'm not a calendar guy but the time period does give use those two important breaks in a school year where our students can spend time with family and friends.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

6 weeks is a big commitment students. The way it is lined up right now for the school I mentor is that the entire season is nestled in between the end of winter break, and the start of spring break. I'd have to pull a calendar to see if there even was a bigger period of time that could be utilized. I mean I guess you could cut into summer and do post spring break well into summer, or summer into fall. Anyway I'm not a calendar guy but the time period does give use those two important breaks in a school year where our students can spend time with family and friends.

That seems like a point in favor of nuggetsyl's no bag and tag argument. That plus pushing kickoff earlier or regionals later.

[sonichammer7476]

Guys. No. I have to agree with that one guy, I would say that 95% of teams have the ability to buy parts locally, whenever they want. 6 weeks is staying, at least for a while. And the idea of a no bag and tag is ridiculous. Who would sign up for any earlier competitions? Hardly any teams would pass up an opportunity to have 5 extra weeks of building and perfecting. The cons of changing how it is now far outweigh the pros.

[xXhunter47Xx]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

6 weeks is a big commitment students.

This. When I was on this team and now when I come back and "mentor" (term used VERY lightly), first semester finals fall directly in the middle of build season. You may think that this is an argument for a longer build season but the fact that finals are in the middle of build season and mid terms come around right after build season (actually I'm not sure about that for this school anymore but MY midterms definitely do... lol ) it's fine the way it is. Also, mentors are here for a LONG time. 6 weeks is plenty.

Of course your argument is about supply and demand (basically), and to that I don't have much to say. I just wanted to say that any longer than 6 weeks can cause a commitment issue (hell there's already commitment issues but that's a story for another time) so maybe you are correct and a longer build season can fix that issue but for students you want to keep it at 6 weeks.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by xXhunter47Xx

This. When I was on this team and now when I come back and "mentor" (term used VERY lightly), first semester finals fall directly in the middle of build season. You may think that this is an argument for a longer build season but the fact that finals are in the middle of build season and mid terms come around right after build season (actually I'm not sure about that for this school anymore but MY midterms definitely do... lol ) it's fine the way it is. Also, mentors are here for a LONG time. 6 weeks is plenty.

Of course your argument is about supply and demand (basically), and to that I don't have much to say. I just wanted to say that any longer than 6 weeks can cause a commitment issue (hell there's already commitment issues but that's a story for another time) so maybe you are correct and a longer build season can fix that issue but for students you want to keep it at 6 weeks.

Snap forgot about finals...
Yeah I'm not sure a larger period of time is even available. Either way I feel 6 weeks is a good amount of time it applies pressure but is reasonable.

[mrnoble]

There are so many examples of "leaks" in the non-FRC world that have dramatic consequences for businesses or competitive events. For instance, I play Magic, and nearly every game release there is some major and early leak of cards, which can dramatically impact the bottom line of many businesses. There is no way that FRC could reliably pass on info like that and get away with it; we would soon hear about insider trading situations, with teams whose mentors have access to the info being better prepared in advance for the game. It would ruin FRC. No way.

[Joe G.]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

There are so many examples of "leaks" in the non-FRC world that have dramatic consequences for businesses or competitive events. For instance, I play Magic, and nearly every game release there is some major and early leak of cards, which can dramatically impact the bottom line of many businesses. There is no way that FRC could reliably pass on info like that and get away with it; we would soon hear about insider trading situations, with teams whose mentors have access to the info being better prepared in advance for the game. It would ruin FRC. No way.

We already know that they do this to some degree. Andymark stocks the gamepieces, builds a kitbot to suit the game, and in the past, has even supplied FIRST-mandated robot components (2009).

In general, I think you'd be surprised at how many people do know the game, or at least have a good picture of it, in advance. Suppliers for game specific elements, the production crew for the kickoff broadcast, the volunteers who set up the official field for Manchester kickoff, all the teams who build field elements for local kickoffs, and so on. To my knowledge, there has only ever been one "leak" of information prior to kickoff, and it was pretty inconsequential. The exact people who would be told "hey by the way, this'll be a big year for pneumatic wheels" already know quite of confidential information about the game. They may know this already; I personally doubt that it's a coincidence that Andymark just happened to release an FRC legal tank tread system, an approach that had been almost universally written off as unreliable and unnecessary in FRC for over a decade, a few weeks before FRC's toughest terrain game ever was released.

[PowerfulKitty]

Originally Posted by nuggetsyl

IMO we could just announce the game and never do the bag and tag part of it.

THIS

It would eliminate the issue of people cheating by building while the robot is supposed to be bagged. It would also negate the benefit that well funded teams get by building a practice bot.

If they were to change the length of the season, I would want it to be shorter. ~4 weeks or so. Robot in 3 Days kinda shows that. (Yes I understand those people are very experienced and have good resources etc.)

I also don't think you even need pneumatic tires. We are using VexPro 8" traction tires.

[Jon Stratis]

Making the build season longer doesn't really change anything. Parts will still sell out the first weekend, and then take another 2-3 weeks (or more) to come in, and those teams that managed to get their order in early will still have an advantage over those who did not. In fact, their advantage would be even bigger, as they would have even longer with a completed robot to test and practice.

When we do things right, my team doesn't really even need the full 6 weeks to build - we spend the last week testing and practicing.

The fact that there are constrained component quantities means that teams need to innovate, not complain. Instead of looking at specific part shortages as problems, look for alternatives. Find a different way to tackle the challenge. Thats the best part about engineering - there is no one "right" solution to a challenge!

[Joe Ross]

Cause a shortage of pneumatic wheels by posting that everyone should be getting pneumatic wheels
Post that the build season needs to be longer because pneumatic wheels sold out
????
Profit!

[gblake]

When the Challenge part of FRC was dreamed up, the challenge was purposefully (paraphrased) "a time too short, a weight budget too small, a power budget too stingy, a size budget too tight, a ...."

With that in mind, it makes sense that a build season that is long enough for steady, but not all-consuming, focused effort by a group of rookies to produce a kitbot plus a custom feature or two is exactly what the program intends to give you.

The program explicitly doesn't exist for teams to build, tweak, hone, redesign, etc. their multiple superbots 24x7 from kickoff until Einstein. Some teams might choose to get as close to that situation as they can, but the FRC program doesn't exist to cause or encourage it.

Remember there is often a big difference between what you want, and what you need.

A small team can build a successful robot in 3-7 days, especially if they plan in advance to do it, and they practice/prepare.

FRC has a 44-day build season. Embrace it, and be proud of what you can accomplish during it (without losing perspective)!

Blake

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by gblake

FRC has a 44-day build season. Embrace it, and be proud of what you can accomplish during it (without losing perspective)!

Pretty sure a lot of top-ranked teams would disagree with you on this. Also a lot of mentor family members. My wife, in particular, laughs every time I claim FRC has a 6-week build season.