paper: Stop the Stop Build

[nuclearnerd]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

The compromise solution presented here is brilliant, and is something that could be implemented immediately without any logistical changes on FIRST's end. 8 hours of unbag time a week for all teams would be a huge improvement over the current system, and I suspect it would eliminate the need for practice robots for many mid tier teams. Upper level teams may still choose to build one, but the advantage gained over everyone else would be reduced.

+1.

The only question I have with the compromise (and this applies to existing district rules) is: Doesn't unbag time become an unlimited withholding allowance? What is stopping teams from tying a bunch of spare parts to the robot before re-bagging it? If that's not really a concern, is there any point in keeping a 30lb withholding allowance?

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

+1.

The only question I have with the compromise (and this applies to existing district rules) is: Doesn't unbag time become an unlimited withholding allowance? What is stopping teams from tying a bunch of spare parts to the robot before re-bagging it? If that's not really a concern, is there any point in keeping a 30lb withholding allowance?

Under current rules, District teams are suppose to respect the withholding allowance during the unbag time. Admittedly the only thing that keeps teams from unlimited spare parts is respect for the rules.

One advantage of district unbag is you are in your shop. You are allowed to fabricate unlimited amount of parts during the unbag window.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

+1.

The only question I have with the compromise (and this applies to existing district rules) is: Doesn't unbag time become an unlimited withholding allowance? What is stopping teams from tying a bunch of spare parts to the robot before re-bagging it? If that's not really a concern, is there any point in keeping a 30lb withholding allowance?

The withholding allowance rules also apply during unbag windows. You cannot introduce more than 30 pounds of non-COTS parts machined outside of the window, during the unbag window. You also get just one withholdling allowance for both the unbag window and the district event the same week as the window (District unbag times are tied to competing at events) - so it's not like you can put 30 pounds on at the shop and 30 pounds more at the event.

You can introduce as many parts as you want that were machined during the unbag window, into the bag.

[Joe Johnson]

This is my main argument for just ripping the band-aide off rather than going with the 8 hour per week window: The rules around withholding are already a hot mess, I can see how this 8 hour per week rule could make this situation worse.

If the only way I can get rid of the stop build rule is to make this half step happen for a few years, then I'll take it and be happy but I would much rather just make a clean break. Kill the bags, kill the tags, kill the entire withholding rules...

Dr. Joe J.

[Allison K]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

The withholding allowance rules also apply during unbag windows. You cannot introduce more than 30 pounds of non-COTS parts machined outside of the window, during the unbag window. You also get just one withholdling allowance for both the unbag window and the district event the same week as the window (District unbag times are tied to competing at events) - so it's not like you can put 30 pounds on at the shop and 30 pounds more at the event.

You can introduce as many parts as you want that were machined during the unbag window, into the bag.

While definitely a sound interpretation of the 2016 withholding rules, that sounds awful to try to keep track of in the context of a weekly unbag period... Uh, how many pounds did we add on last week? Was that part made inside or outside of the window? What's the total weight of parts we made outside of the window between last event and our next one?

Would a withholding even be necessary with a weekly unbag period? I suppose that might hurt teams that use withholding to keep their control system out so that they can use it on a practice/twin or test bed without having to buy duplicates of all the (rather costly for some teams) components. Would also get messy with regards to sending out parts to a sponsor... since it couldn't be withholding and would be impractical to try to have the machining done during the same window of the time the team is meeting (and even if it was practical, that's an awkward interpretation of unbag time).