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Unread 28-11-2016, 21:32
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

The battery will be mounted at the top, correct? There can be no other way.
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Unread 28-11-2016, 22:52
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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Originally Posted by z_beeblebrox View Post
I'd love to see a little more about the self-righting works and how damage is avoided when the robot tips over (that's a lot of energy that has to be dissipated). How will this avoid problems with the rule about extending more than 15" beyond the frame perimeter?

A minor plywood suggestion: offset the screws in the tabs and slots so that one side of the nut is flush with the plate that it's pressed into. The change is insignificant structurally, but speeds up assembly, as a hammer can be used to install and align the nuts, rather than each having to be inserted and precisely centered with pliers.
Self righting would be done using a versaplanetary winding a strap to move an arm, one on each side of the robot. The arm would return to it's original position when the strap is let back out, using the magic of springs (more latex).



A damper to lessen the shock when falling over is a really good idea. I'm not sure where the best place to source parts for something like that would be. Some mountain bike spring/damper sets could be used, since they are lightweight by design. Maybe a simple low force gas strut could work, too.

The offset bolt position is a neat idea. You could probably accomplish something similar using centered bolt positions but putting a spacer under the plywood when you hammer in the nuts in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aren_Hill View Post
I think you'll find the directional performance of that strafe wheel will be quite aggressive in one direction, and lackluster in the other.

Having the pivot off to one side results in the wheel trying to "drive under" the pivot when going towards it, and it lifting itself up when driving away from it.

I've seen this effect mitigated via using a linear up/down motion, or the fancy strafe module 148 used in 2014 that used this action to it's benefit.

Actuating it is another option, but has it's own downsides.

-Aren
That's a really good point. Using the toggling style of strafing mechanism is probably a much better application for this, since when it's not in use it leaves the full weight of the robot on the two outside wheels. (I believe this was first used on 148's 2014 robot?) You could probably spend a lot of time playing with the geometry to get it to work just right for a strafing segway robot, since the downforce is dependent on the geometry and how much torque the motor is applying. Would be a fun project!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman View Post
The battery will be mounted at the top, correct? There can be no other way.
I make a point to ensure that the battery is always impossible to get to. It might be at the top of the robot, but you will need to unbolt a mechanism to change it.
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Unread 28-11-2016, 23:32
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

*cough* Why are you only posting screenshots? *cough*
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Unread 28-11-2016, 23:45
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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*cough* Why are you only posting screenshots? *cough*
Ooh, check out Mr. Spoily McSpoilerpants over here.
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Unread 28-11-2016, 23:47
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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Originally Posted by GUI View Post
*cough* Why are you only posting screenshots? *cough*
CAAAAAD
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Unread 29-11-2016, 00:45
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
That's a really good point. Using the toggling style of strafing mechanism is probably a much better application for this, since when it's not in use it leaves the full weight of the robot on the two outside wheels. (I believe this was first used on 148's 2014 robot?) You could probably spend a lot of time playing with the geometry to get it to work just right for a strafing segway robot, since the downforce is dependent on the geometry and how much torque the motor is applying. Would be a fun project!
Yeah, 148's bot in 2014 was the first instance of it, a JVN special (the VEXiq prototype was adorable).

-Aren
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Unread 02-12-2016, 10:45
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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Originally Posted by Aren_Hill View Post
Yeah, 148's bot in 2014 was the first instance of it, a JVN special (the VEXiq prototype was adorable).

-Aren
Would love to see the IQ version, any images of that around?
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Unread 29-11-2016, 07:29
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by z_beeblebrox View Post
... how damage is avoided when the robot tips over (that's a lot of energy that has to be dissipated).
Quote:
Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
Self righting would be done using a versaplanetary winding a strap to move an arm, one on each side of the robot. The arm would return to it's original position when the strap is let back out, using the magic of springs (more latex).

[image]

A damper to lessen the shock when falling over is a really good idea. I'm not sure where the best place to source parts for something like that would be. Some mountain bike spring/damper sets could be used, since they are lightweight by design. Maybe a simple low force gas strut could work, too.
You may also be able to achieve this by partially deploying the self-righting mechanism, and taking up the shock through backdriving the VP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
Using the toggling style of strafing mechanism is probably a much better application for this, since when it's not in use it leaves the full weight of the robot on the two outside wheels. (I believe this was first used on 148's 2014 robot?) You could probably spend a lot of time playing with the geometry to get it to work just right for a strafing segway robot, since the downforce is dependent on the geometry and how much torque the motor is applying. Would be a fun project!
I did a white paper on the math of this sort of module about two years ago that may give you a good start. Note that this configuration will take more weight off of the wheel you're strafing away from than the one you're strafing towards; it may be easier to keep the balance routines working with a centered, linearly sprung/actuated strafe module.
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Unread 29-11-2016, 16:07
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

I always love the discussions these ideas can generate.

This might have done well in 2007, I remember 1501 building a 2 wheel robot that year. Add a few ramps and you've got a nice robot
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Unread 29-11-2016, 19:48
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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Originally Posted by GeeTwo View Post
You may also be able to achieve this by partially deploying the self-righting mechanism, and taking up the shock through backdriving the VP.
I like the idea of using the self-righting mechanisms as the brake for falling, it gives them multiple functions. I don't think the versaplanetary would like being slammed over and over again though. It probably would need a damping method between the end of the arm and the gearbox, or we would have to invest globs of money into spare versaplanetary stages.

I thought about several ways to implement this, and I think this is one of the better ways. Using a rear mountain bike shock on an additional joint on the self righting arm gives it damping ability, and is pretty adjustable. It looks like some air shocks have the ability to adjust the spring force (by varying the air pressure) and the damping coefficient, so it could likely be optimized to get rid of all of the bouncing after falling over. Pretty nifty!

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Unread 29-11-2016, 19:58
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
I like the idea of using the self-righting mechanisms as the brake for falling, it gives them multiple functions. I don't think the versaplanetary would like being slammed over and over again though. It probably would need a damping method between the end of the arm and the gearbox, or we would have to invest globs of money into spare versaplanetary stages.

I thought about several ways to implement this, and I think this is one of the better ways. Using a rear mountain bike shock on an additional joint on the self righting arm gives it damping ability, and is pretty adjustable. It looks like some air shocks have the ability to adjust the spring force (by varying the air pressure) and the damping coefficient, so it could likely be optimized to get rid of all of the bouncing after falling over. Pretty nifty!

Is the plan to have the self-righting mechanisms only attached to the chassis through a single cantilevered shaft or is there something else not yet modeled? Because if so, that's a lot of force going through a cantilevered shaft, especially one only attached to a single piece of wood (again, not bashing wood; I would be sceptical with it only going through a single piece of sheet metal too).
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Unread 29-11-2016, 20:05
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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Originally Posted by Ari423 View Post
Is the plan to have the self-righting mechanisms only attached to the chassis through a single cantilevered shaft or is there something else not yet modeled? Because if so, that's a lot of force going through a cantilevered shaft, especially one only attached to a single piece of wood (again, not bashing wood; I would be sceptical with it only going through a single piece of sheet metal too).
Taking the issues in reverse order:

Looking at the pics closely (particularly the one in post 15 of this thread), it appears that the shaft mounts through the tubing, not just the plywood.

These could easily become "U" shafts, with the other arm pivoted on the inside of the opposite "upright". If I'm picturing this correctly, each would not interfere with the action of the other. This setup would also support some idle rollers if desired to do things like the low bar in 2016 (Of course, the main drive train would need to be modified to make contact with the carpet when somewhat on its side.)
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Unread 29-11-2016, 20:31
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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Originally Posted by GeeTwo View Post
Looking at the pics closely (particularly the one in post 15 of this thread), it appears that the shaft mounts through the tubing, not just the plywood.
I agree that in the pic in post 15 it looks to be going through the tube, but in the latest image on the far side there is a hole in the plywood not through the tube. On the other side of the hole there is something metal with a round bore in it, which I assumed was the bearing for the self-righting arm. I could be wrong, but that would mean that the hole for the self-righting arm either isn't modeled in the far tube or isn't at the same height as the one on the near side. I'll wait for some clarification from s_forbes for a final answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo View Post
These could easily become "U" shafts, with the other arm pivoted on the inside of the opposite "upright". If I'm picturing this correctly, each would not interfere with the action of the other. This setup would also support some idle rollers if desired to do things like the low bar in 2016 (Of course, the main drive train would need to be modified to make contact with the carpet when somewhat on its side.)
What exactly do you mean by "U shafts"? I'm not sure what you are referring to and I am having a hard time picturing how anything U shaped (or not U shaped for that matter) could connect to both arms without having to cross through the center of the robot, which I am assuming was intentionally left open to leave room for a manipulator otherwise there is no room to mount one. Also, I'm not exactly sure what problem you are trying to solve, because I only (intentionally) raised one point in that last post.
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Unread 30-11-2016, 07:33
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

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Originally Posted by Ari423 View Post
I agree that in the pic in post 15 it looks to be going through the tube, but in the latest image on the far side there is a hole in the plywood not through the tube. On the other side of the hole there is something metal with a round bore in it, which I assumed was the bearing for the self-righting arm. I could be wrong, but that would mean that the hole for the self-righting arm either isn't modeled in the far tube or isn't at the same height as the one on the near side. I'll wait for some clarification from s_forbes for a final answer.
I took the new circle on the plywood as a bolt to help transfer torque from the plywood to the arm.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari423 View Post
What exactly do you mean by "U shafts"? I'm not sure what you are referring to and I am having a hard time picturing how anything U shaped (or not U shaped for that matter) could connect to both arms without having to cross through the center of the robot, which I am assuming was intentionally left open to leave room for a manipulator otherwise there is no room to mount one. Also, I'm not exactly sure what problem you are trying to solve, because I only (intentionally) raised one point in that last post.
I was referring to an arm which mounted onto both uprights, not just one. It would only take up an inch on either side; the would still go across the robot either outside the frame perimeter or above the main robot chassis. This was also in response to your concern about a cantilevered shaft.
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Unread 02-12-2016, 10:09
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Re: pic: 3 wheel omni drive concept

Do you intend to attempt to steer (make left and right turns) when its' in strafing mode?

I anticipate you could steer with a little input from the main two wheels, but I also think this would be really difficult to implement.
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