Critical and picky - here I go again.

[Amanda Morrison]

Things have been so negative on these forums lately... your grandmothers would all CRINGE. Can you believe what we've heard so far?

Comes down to this:

-Please follow the guidelines of 'constructive criticism' if you have criticism at all.
-Say what you would only say to your own team. If you are going to question someone else's ethics or team skills, you should be able to question your own.
-If you have something particularly biting to say that you think NEEDS to be said publicly, feel free to confront a team at a regional. If you would have trouble saying it to their face, don't say it here.
-THINK before you SPEAK. Don't overreact. Come back to the forums an hour or two after you read a thread, and make sure you consider all arguments or comments when posting.
-It'll never hurt to say something privately to a team first before saying it publicly.

and last but not least: STAY POSITIVE!

We're all in this for the long haul! We like this program, we like what it's doing. We like helping. We like inspiring. We like playing with power tools, stripping wire, or just stripping for alliance partners... We're all students, mentors, parents, peers, people. We all have things in common. If you wouldn't like it said to you, don't say it.

/edit: I didn't say I was the one stripping for an alliance partner! That all came from what I read in this thread ... before my time.

[ZACH P.]

I highly agree with you Andy. Besides being downright mean, a lot of things are said here just to boost ther poster's ego by hurting others it seems. That is definatly not the way to go. I mean if you dont have something postive or useful to contribute, then why waste you energy to post it?

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

We like playing with power tools, stripping wire, or just stripping for alliance partners...

That last part is intruiging...

[Heretic121]

I personally think that some of the critical statements are over taken or taken the wrong way and or blown way out of poportion. i am not in any way shape or forum dissagreeing with the big man andy on his post, i agree with it =D, but ithink that someof it some of what is said can be just taken the wrong way. i still do think though some people can tone down the way they come out from thier posts...

and i completely agree with zach p... that last part is VERY very intriguing =D

*edit* also... by the way... i do not want to sound mean, or arguative or anything... but why does one individual impact a team? i mean it could be some freshman trying to make a joke and trying to act cool, and most of the time a team does not agree with one another also... so... can someone clairify this for me please...

[abeD]

just learned about it in psychology (knew that class was good for somethin), and its really just about having the support of your peers means more to most people than anything else. Having one person on these forums say something bad about their robot can be very demoralizing and the opposite is true.

Not that much on topic but in a study when canadian college students were asked what was the most tramautic event in their childhoold only 9% mentioned their parents while 37% mentioned something peer related. (from the psych book lol)

[Rich Wong]

True.

Actually, I've seen less negativity this year than last year. (maybe I have not been reading enough...)
I felt last year was the worst. I remember it got really ugly at some moments.....

Even KenL had to criticize some of the CD members for virtual mud slinging.

[Gary Dillard]

OK, I'm taking the opposing view (how stupid can I be to oppose Andy Baker) - I value Andy's opinion more than my own but I need to chime in on this.

If it's a question of the tone or the manner the criticism is presented, I agree - need to be careful in word selection. Unfortunately one of the limits of written critique is you can't tell what's a positive comment and what's negative since there's no voice inflection or facial expression.

However - I have been a design engineer for over twenty years and lead engineer for the past several. There is one point I hammer home to young engineers when we go into our design reviews both at work and on the team - don't become emotionally attached to your design. The intent of a design review is to improve the design, not to tell you what a great job you did. Sometimes that's a tweak; sometimes it means start over.

You should look at this as an opportunity to defend your design in a positive manner (without getting defensive), but don't be afraid or embarrassed to say you don't know or you didn't consider something. Here's some ways to respond:

"it looks good, but does it work?"

We built a prototype and it moved (pulled, turned, etc.) better than we expected.
It was a little slow but we changed the bearings and it's running very well now.

"that part looks too heavy, you need to lose weight"

My budget for this part was 6.5 pounds and I'm under that.
We needed this part to be robust because it's right in the front.

"that ratio looks way off. you should try... (yada yada)"

I checked my calculations again and we're operating well down on the power curve.
I checked my calculations again and it was a little high but the next size wouldn't fit in the envelope.

At the end of the process I frequently have changed the entire design because I liked someone elses ideas, and just as frequently I have considered all the critique and decided I was correct and pressed on. Either way, when you get to competition and something works well you can be proud of it.

[Adam Y.]

"it looks good, but does it work?"
"that part looks too heavy, you need to lose weight"
"that ratio looks way off. you should try... (yada yada)"

Those were the same questions we were talking about our robot and yet you didn't even see it yet. Anyway I usually ask the first question when I don't know how something works. Im not trying to be critical. Then I usually ask design questions just to see why those choose to go one way or another.

[KyleGilbert45]

I see there being criticism and constructive criticism. Most comments I have seen are criticism, as they do not give very much thought or reason into a questin they are asking about a picture/robot.

It seems like everytime a robot picture or teaser gets up loaded it is the same 2 or 3 people asking questions about it too. If you wanna know information I see that PM'ing the uploader of the picture to be the best option that way you do not clog the portal page with threads says "Ohhh I like" or "Yeah, but i dont like..." etc etc etc.....

I totally agree with Andy on this matter and feel PM's should be used when responding to most images uploaded to this site.

[dmellich]

"Critical and picky..." I think not!

Andy's message can be summed up in two words...

Gracious Professionalism

If I recall correctly, Dean made a very strong statement about this at the kickoff. I have beat this into my students heads. They have bought into the message.

Keep going Andy!!

[thewizard16]

Hello again,

Well, I'm going with Andy on this one as well. People need to be careful with what they say, myself included. There's a little trick to ensure that you don't say anything mean or overly critical... Have brain intercept mean/overly critical thought before it reaches mouth. I did that a couple times. What helps me is to remember that just because it didn't work for us doesn't mean it can't work for them. When I was talking with a coach from a different team in our pit the other day he was discussing our design with me, and asking some questions. He asked me why we didn't do a certain design of ball holding idea. I knew their robot happened to be based on this idea, and knew the question could mean one of two things. One- he wanted to know if we'd discovered something better, or Two- he wanted to know why the heck we did what we did. Well, to be honest, we'd tried something similar to what he was discussing, and it didn't do at all what we wanted it to. But, I reminded myself that just because we didn't make it work, didn't mean they were incapable of making it work, and told him that we felt that we accomplish more of the goals our team members set out by using a broader, less specific, design.
Remember people- appearances are everything, and the things you say go a long way on the gracious professionalism track. (in other words, don't talk bad about the other teams till you get to the hotel. And if they're in the same hotel, talk quiet. those walls are thin.)
Later,

[Ryan F.]

Hello,

I realize this is a little late, but it's something I wanted to point out. helpfull criticism of robots is great, but watch how far you go with it..because people spent so much time working on these robots. The thing is that I've noticed a sort of elitist attitude on these forums when robots are being criticized. It looks like some people believe that they post a lot here, or that they know a lot more than someone else that they can go overboard on the criticism, or maybe just try to make themselves look good by being picky with someones robot. That's probably not the case with a lot of people..but sometimes it definetly looks like that.

[Mark Pettit]

At L.A., the inspector that was going over our robot was incessantly telling us what was wrong with our machine. He would point at a part and tell us how we should have done it instead. We all kind of knodded and umm-hmm'd at him in agreement so as not to upset him and keep him from passing us on inspection but when we got back to our pit we all commented on what a jerk he was about it since our robot works just fine, thank you. Especially since none of us believed that he could build one better.
Our bitterness escalated all the more when we saw that he was actually a mentor for one of the local L.A. teams.
Yes, Andy, et al., I agree! We should all be in awe of each others' creations and we should all see them as the personal objects that they are to each of us who have put so much into them.
My team is constantly telling ourselves that, "If we had more time, we could have done this. . . " or "Wow! That part would have been better if we would have built it this way. . . ". We respect other teams creations and would never think about telling them how they should have done it.

[kmcclary]

Originally Posted by Mark Pettit

At L.A., the inspector that was going over our robot was incessantly telling us what was wrong with our machine. He would point at a part and tell us how we should have done it instead. [what a jerk]

In this case, not seeing the incident in question, its hard to judge... If it was safety related, listen up! But if it was simply HIS opinion for a "better way", well, he can have his opinion, and you can have yours!

Please be conscious that there's a fine line all inspectors have to walk, between trying to be helpful, "mentoring", and perceived as being "overly critical". OOH, he has no reason criticizing a well working system.

OTOH, there's a disabling concept rampant among businesses, called "NIH Syndrome". (Not Invented Here... IOW, "If WE didn't come up with it, it CAN'T be any good") If your own pride deafens you from absorbing some cool ideas "for next time" which may have made your job easier, THAT in and of itself CAN be a problem.

His experience may have been dearly won, with pain, suffering, long hours, dead robots, or simply some lousy round scores. You never know... Just take notes, and try not to take his comments personally. Look them over LATER, once you've cooled off. If it turns out to be SOUND advice, add it in your bag of tricks for another year.

Hey... I'll admit to ANYONE that *I* am not an expert in everything. I have no crying need to suffer needlessly. If ANYONE wishes to offer me "a better way" to do ANYTHING, I'm all ears! I'll just take the data, and decide LATER if I'll take the advice or not the NEXT time I'm faced with the same choice!

But then, it doesn't mean we're going to tear apart a legal, working robot just to satisfy HIS vision of OUR robot...

Bottom Line: To heck with other's opinions... RESULTS ARE EVERYTHING. If your robot is LEGAL, AND it does what you wanted it to do, it's FINE... The Field will determine if your approach was sound or not. BUT, don't succumb to "NIH Syndrome" and tune them out whenever someone tries to offer advice!

Sounds like you handled it well, and your bot worked out, and that's ALL that matters. Keep up the good work, and Build More Bots!

- Keith

[Redhead Jokes]

Originally Posted by kmcclary

OTOH, there's a diabling concept rampant among businesses, called "NIH Syndrome". (Not Invented Here... IOW, "If WE didn't come up with it, it CAN'T be any good")

That's so funny. I just heard about NIH about a couple of weeks ago from a mentor on another team who described how she'd experienced that in running her own business. She was contracted to provide CEO's with a business report that was very expensive. The CEO would love it. If the CEO took it home to his wife it was often subjected to the NIH Syndrome and picked to pieces.

She and I commiserate about the people who don't appreciate all the work involved, the process, and what was accomplished, and prefer to criticize and blame, point out what SHOULD have been done, plan what should BE done, and expect others to put in all the time and effort to put those plans in place, without offering their own time and energy.

[KenWittlief]

there is another factor at work here - i dont have a catch phrase for it

its very difficult to come up with a geniune new idea - it takes a real flash of insight and brillance - and then to implement a new idea for the first time is 100% new territory

but once you have the first version of your new concept built and working, its VERY easy for someone esle to come along, take a look at what you have accomplished, and find many ways to make it better

one example - I worked for Sayette Technology, the company that originated the idea of putting an LCD panel on an overhead projector, and created the entire LCD projector industry

we build a projector that had two light bulbs and a light sensor and a motor - if the one bulb burned out, the motor would rotate the new bulb into position and turn it on. We sold a lot of these projectors due to this feature alone.

It was a difficult mechanism to get to work right, the wires to the bulbs where heat insulated and it was hard to get it to rotate and stop in just the right position for optical alignment

one of our competitors came out with an automatic light changer - they oneupped us - they had two bulbs pointing at each other, and in the center was a little mirror. When one bulb burned out a little motor flipped the mirror the other way

thats the way engineering is - you normally build on someone else work, find small ways to improve what someone else has already accomplished.

just remembered, there is a catch phrase for this: OneUpManShip