"Playing Cheap"

[David66]

i will not post here...i will not post here....well...okay, yes I will

So, two teams want to hang at the beginning of the match? fantastic, makes me very happy. my alliance partner and i will now be herding EVERY ball to our human players for about 1:20....and then capping both goals....lol, don't sweat it, hanging robots are NOT the end of the world. Ask Auburn Hills (Team 33). They collect balls. that's it. Oh, and they won virginia with it. I'd say hanging is easily negatable.

okay....i think im done....

[Tom Bottiglieri]

i think this thread was not aimed to shoot down different people's robots or strategies, just to see what people thought about a certain strategy of hanging from the begining of the match.

[Elgin Clock]

I think the results of the poll answers the question very nicely.
Thank you for making it a poll!!

[KenWittlief]

maybe the problem is that teams who are able to hang very well, and do it consistantly

well.....

they just make it look so EASY! :^)

when you see a bot trying and trying and trying to grab the bar and they finally made it, you think, wow that driver really struggled to make it happen

but if a bot hangs itself in auton mode.... then how hard can it be, right?

[ShadowKnight]

I'd just give props to the programmer...but you know...

Our bot can hang. Hanging is something that we will be doing better than say ball grabbing and such. We designed our robot with that in mind...yes, we can do other things, but hanging is our strong point and if we do better just going for the hang at the beginning, than that's what we'll be doing...it comes down to strategy. In reality...any bot that hangs at the start is actually more at a disadvantage if you can heard well with ball and can cap and have an excellent human player. ... 18 balls + 3 balls + 3 balls = 24 balls. 24 balls * 5 =120 points. 120 points * 2 for the multiplier ball is 240 points...a bot that could shoot well, cap, and catch all the balls and feed them to the hp could woop on a team that hanged...

[JVN]

There is no such thing as a cheap strategy.
Just people too foolish to adapt.

"whine whine whine... you won't let us play the game the way we think it should be played... whine whine whine"

Play the game the way it's being played, not the way you think it should be played.

When in rome... beat them at their own game.
Or something like that, I was never good at proverbs.

JVN

[MOEmaniac]

if every team had the same stratagy then the game would be boring and FIRST isnt about being boring its about havin fun and learnin. i agree that no stratagy is ever cheap.

[OneAngryDaisy]

What truly amazes me is the low volume of teams who can hang from the floor- those steps are extremely dangerous, I know when my team was testing our treads we flipped every time, yet so many have designed elaborate drivetrains to go up those steps.. I somewhat wish we had a 'cool' drivetrain also, but it sure is a luxury to not have to worry about those steps. Did most of you think about this option instead of going up the steps?



*This was my opinion only and does not represent team 341*

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by OneAngryDaisy

What truly amazes me is the low volume of teams who can hang from the floor- those steps are extremely dangerous, I know when my team was testing our treads we flipped every time, yet so many have designed elaborate drivetrains to go up those steps.. I somewhat wish we had a 'cool' drivetrain also, but it sure is a luxury to not have to worry about those steps. Did most of you think about this option instead of going up the steps?
*This was my opinion only and does not represent team 341*

Hanging from the floor.. Yeah, that would be nice.. but.

I think our major problem with hanging from the floor came from the fact that our mechanisn at the end of our arm needs strength from the arm to lift itself up.
We kept that design simple and went with a one jointed system with a pneumatic extension. If we had any more weight or joints we might be able to hang from the floor, but may not be able to sucessfully intergrate our mechanism into play, and would more than likely be over weight.
We are pushing 130.0 as it is now.
Remember that you also have to take the trigonometry of folding up a mechanism that will fit in the starting profile when designing an arm that will reach more than 10' in the air to grab that bar.

[RoteAugen]

okay, in response to this thread, I've submitted a strategy/counter-strategy sheet to the white pages. though it's very basic, enjoy

[OneAngryDaisy]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

Hanging from the floor.. Yeah, that would be nice.. but.

I think our major problem with hanging from the floor came from the fact that our mechanisn at the end of our arm needs strength from the arm to lift itself up.
We kept that design simple and went with a one jointed system with a pneumatic extension. If we had any more weight or joints we might be able to hang from the floor, but may not be able to sucessfully intergrate our mechanism into play, and would more than likely be over weight.
We are pushing 130.0 as it is now.
Remember that you also have to take the trigonometry of folding up a mechanism that will fit in the starting profile when designing an arm that will reach more than 10' in the air to grab that bar.

Not always... we have a telescoping arm that can extend 12'', and its insanely fast also... use your creativity

[Ryan Foley]

Now why would you say hanging is a cheap strategy?
1) It's part of the game. The only cheap strategies in FIRST are those that break rules. The bar is in the game because FIRST wanted to see some hanging bots. Obviously if FIRST thought that just hanging was cheap there wouldnt be a bar to hang on.

2) You can beat a hanging bot, just block them from getting to the bar. And if they do latch on. just beat them with balls.

3) Doing only 1 thing IS A GREAT STRATEGY!!! It gives you all of build season to focus on building the mechanism for that task (the hanging arm for example), saving you time and money. Then your drive teams are so much better at it because they really only have to practice doing 1 thing.

4) Why shouldn't a team get awards when their robot only does one thing. They have played the game as they wanted to, and they, like the rest of us succeeded in building their robot. I have seen robots that do only one thing that are far more impressive than ones that do everything. Just because they only do one thing does not make their robot any less impressive or their team any less skilled.

5) Bots that only hang can be exciting too. With all the trouble getting up the platforms many bots have, its suspenseful watching to see if they can get on top without tipping over. Or try the match at BAE when 4 robots went for the bar at the same time.

6) remember that most of the time, simpler is better. I have watched many matches where the big fancy robot that does everything looses to a little tiny robot that only does one thing. Look at the top seed in BAE, Team 501 only hanged, and they did it well.

Honestly, doing 1 thing is a great strategy. Its simple, usually inexpensive, and usually quicker to build. If a team wants to do this than thats how they want to play the game, and it's their right to play it that way.

by the way, as far as teams that lack the bravery to do anything, consider a few things first:
-maybe that team didnt have the time, resources or money to build anything more than a box on wheels
-never underestimate what a box on wheels can do, they can surprise you
-the team still built a robot didnt they? That means they still did what they set out to do, build a robot
-perhaps the team might not be doing all these showy tricks in matches for fear of breaking or destroying their creation that they worked their buts off on for 6 weeks.

Teams can play the game anyway they want (except for breaking rules of course). Like I said, there arent any "cheap" strategies except those that break the rules or go against gracious professionalism. Obviously if FIRST thought something was "cheap" they would put something in the rules forbdding it (such as the tipping of another robot).

[scottconnery]

"6) remember that most of the time, simpler is better. I have watched many matches where the big fancy robot that does everything looses to a little tiny robot that only does one thing. Look at the top seed in BAE, Team 501 only hanged, and they did it well."

Just a correction, team 501 was the top seed at BAE but they not only hung, they had a great large ball system that allowed them to steal the mobile goal, place it under their troff, fill it and cap it within 30 seconds....then they hung. Hanging alone would not have been enough in most of their matches.

[team222badbrad]

There is no such thing as playing Cheap. However their is such thing as playing smart. There are not many ways to score points this year. Its either hang for 50 points or push balls to the human player. From the looks of the robots many teams took the HANG path.

I say let them hang if they wanna. Let them clear the path for your alliance to score the balls!!! (HINT HINT)

[MOEmaniac]

yup i think the poll explains the majority of people point of view