pic: 230 pt. celebration

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

It came as no surprise when the game was revealed Ken and I started debating if the thumb could dominate. His idea was that a bar dominator, aka thumb, along with a good offensive robot would win it all. The story grows from there, but that is how it all started.

I think in the case of what you state here, the bar dominator and offensive bot could do well...but, as we found out there was an extreme flaw to that idea of strategy. What ended up happening in the case of bar domination / offensive bot, is that the offensive bot would end up getting picked on by a good defensive robot. Good case would be with WPI. WPI could hang in autonomous mode...which in itself was quite impressive. However, everytime they did so, they left their partner high and dry with no bodyguard for protection. Any robot that hung from the outset, would leave its partner to get tooled by a good defensive robot, thus resulting in a loss if the defenders partner was a high caliber offensive robot. I dont necessarily think two offensive robots was the answer either. I feel that actually the answer was machine specific. Some robots would work perfect with others, and probably be close to unbeatable. This year, more than any other...there was no "Beatty move", which is kinda ironic considering Beatty won.

[Joel J]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Ken,

Very true. However, there were not two fingers on the opposing alliance. My arguement is that a defender trying to stop two offensive robots will get beat very severely. Example: Team 33 and Team 45 (or 303,461,469,1241,93) both have their robots full of balls. O.K. defender, what do you do? Try to stop both and you will stop neither. Try to stop one and the other will score unstopped. Chances are the defender will lose. An off season competition will prove me right ... I know it!

-Paul

After watching the national competition this year, I have a vision of 716 + 233 vs. any two offensive robots. the 716 + 233 monster would play defense on the offensive machines for the entire match, then with 10-15 seconds remaining, they would dash for the hang. They will have at least 130 points, and their offensive opponents will end up with at most 50.

However, when I initially thought of this, I forgot to factor in the possibilty of the offensive machines hanging. Or the offensive machines being able to, themselves, play defense. A strictly defensive alliance has to basically rely on the fact that they can both hang and at most, only one of their opponents can. 233 + 716 has a good chance of taking out a 33 + 45 alliance, but only if they do it right.

To be honest, I would feel much more comfortable as part of the 33 + 45 alliance, because you do not necessarily need a strong(er) robot to play very good defense.

Now, if the alliance has one defensive and one offensive robot, then the chances of them taking out two offensive machines are very high. Look at the last match of the championship. 494 diverted their opponent's attention away from 71, allowing 71 an enormous amount of breathing room to rack up their score.

(ohh.. i just read john's example)

I think 33 + 45 would win (the alliance, not the assumed form of play); it would just require 33 to assume a "defensive" role, which I'm sure they are capable of. 33 would prevent 494 from disabling 45. 45 then gets free roam to fill their goal with 5 point balls and cap it: 170 points. 60 would put about 14 balls into their goal, cap, then hang. 190 points? No. 45 would cap their goal earlier allowing them to go over and uncap 60's goal. 120 points for the 60 alliance. At this point 494 would perhaps get away and attempt to uncap 45's goal. If they succeed, 45's score drops to 85 points. But 33 should be able to prevent the uncapping. If 33 hangs while 494 is decapping, then their (33+45's) score jumps up to 135. If 494 decides not to uncap 45's goal and instead goes for the hang, then their alliance's score would jump to back to 170. The end result: a tie. Eek. Its getting hairy now. But looking back at this possible outcome, a 33 + 45 alliance has more room to beat a 60 + 494 alliance.

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Joel J.

I think 33 + 45 would win (the alliance, not the assumed form of play); it would just require 33 to assume a "defensive" role, which I'm sure they are capable of. 33 would prevent 494 from disabling 45. 45 then gets free roam to fill their goal with 5 point balls and cap it: 170 points. 60 would put about 14 balls into their goal, cap, then hang. 190 points? No. 45 would cap their goal earlier allowing them to go over and uncap 60's goal. 120 points for the 60 alliance. At this point 494 would perhaps get away and attempt to uncap 45's goal. If they succeed, 45's score drops to 85 points. But 33 should be able to prevent the uncapping. If 33 hangs while 494 is decapping, then their (33+45's) score jumps up to 135. If 494 decides not to uncap 45's goal and instead goes for the hang, then their alliance's score would jump to back to 170. The end result: a tie. Eek. Its getting hairy now. But looking back at this possible outcome, a 33 + 45 alliance has more room to beat a 60 + 494 alliance.

The wild card maneuver...

Team 60, with its sheer capping speed, caps the opponents goal at the very begining of the match, rendering allllll those little balls that 33 and 45 can get, useless until they can manage to pull the ball out of the stationary goal....not an easy feat may I add.

[Paul Copioli]

My point is: Nobody is dominating the match.

Good game this year.

[Joel J]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

The wild card maneuver...

Team 60, with its sheer capping speed, caps the opponents goal at the very begining of the match, rendering allllll those little balls that 33 and 45 can get, useless until they can manage to pull the ball out of the stationary goal....not an easy feat may I add.

Makes it easier for 45. They deliver their balls to their HP just the same, then backs up and uncaps their goal. They have a big ball right there. It would not be hard to imagine that 45 would have already had a big ball. They could just as easily do a mirror move (reminded of 67 + 469 in the Grand Semifinals) and cap 60's goal, pushing the big ball waaaay down. That would take 60 a little bit of time to get out. Or, more likely, 45 would just drop the ball they picked up and use the ball placed on their stationary goal. 60 would diddle around trying to pick up the big ball from the ground, then move on to corralling, while 45 is proceeding as planned: big ball in hand, and a slew of small balls to boot. Eh?

[Joel J]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

My point is: Nobody is dominating the match.

Good game this year.

Ok.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by JVN

Okay for your consideration,
45 + 33 vs. 494 + 60.

494 plays big D on those pesky technokittens. Shuts them down. 33 goes nuts on offense. 60 does the same. 494 and 60 both hang.

Who wins?
Finger + Thumb.

What happens when 494 and 60 go to hang? 45 either caps their own goal, or uncaps 60's (depending on what was more adventageous) and 33 hangs.

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

My point is: Nobody is dominating the match.

Good game this year.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...best game since 2000. The beauty about this game? The awsome strategy discussions you can have like the current one we have going on, where there is no right or wrong answer...just alot of well thought out debate. Once again, three cheers for FIRST on this one.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

The wild card maneuver...

Team 60, with its sheer capping speed, caps the opponents goal at the very begining of the match, rendering allllll those little balls that 33 and 45 can get, useless until they can manage to pull the ball out of the stationary goal....not an easy feat may I add.

As it turns out, the KatsKlaw arm is very capable of pulling a ball from the stationary goal. Once it has a multiplier ball securely held, the roller-gripper design does not let go until commanded to, and the pneumatic lift on the arm gives it a lot more pulling power than you might think.

If the stationary goal does end up being taken out of commission by a well-stuffed multiplier, don't count out the mobile goal. Team 1272 was consistent in filling it to the brim and capping it. The mobile goal was never a real factor in 45's strategy, which arguably led to a few of the TechnoKats' losses.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

The wild card maneuver...

Team 60, with its sheer capping speed, caps the opponents goal at the very begining of the match, rendering allllll those little balls that 33 and 45 can get, useless until they can manage to pull the ball out of the stationary goal....not an easy feat may I add.

Ahhh yessss, they could do that, and although I don't recall their sheer capping speed, they may not be able to complete it without several 10pt goaltending penalties. Either way, we've got plenty of strategies up our sleeve. Our little balls will never be useless...
Besides, who ever said they would dominate the 2x ball before us? I think they may have just wasted their 2x ball.............

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by CD47-Bot

Thread created automatically to discuss this image in the Picture Gallery.

Are there 23 balls in that goal? With only one bot hanging, a score of 230 to 70 and four bals in the opponents goal, The only way to get 230 is 23 balls in the goal!. Am I missing something, I didn't think that many would fit?

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Are there 23 balls in that goal? With only one bot hanging, a score of 230 to 70 and four bals in the opponents goal, The only way to get 230 is 23 balls in the goal!. Am I missing something, I didn't think that many would fit?

No, only 18. That is an error in the real time scoring. The correct score was 230 to 20, with 1 of blue robot's hanging.

BTW, it sure is a lot easier to score a lot of points when both opponents on on their side

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Are there 23 balls in that goal? With only one bot hanging, a score of 230 to 70 and four bals in the opponents goal, The only way to get 230 is 23 balls in the goal!. Am I missing something, I didn't think that many would fit?

You're missing only one thing: the final score was actually 230 to 20. Red was not hanging; one robot was tipped over near the blue mobile goal, and the other was arm-wrestling with KatsKlaw trying to do something about the capped stationary goal. The score of 70 showed briefly at the end of the match, but it was in error.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

My point is: Nobody is dominating the match.

Good game this year.

I'll give you that one.

John

[Ken Patton]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Back to the point: Our bet was that a POLE DOMINATOR paired with an offense oriented robot would win. That did not happen. The fact that a defensive robot on the floor is now called a thumb is beyond the scope of the original definition.

However, given this new definition I still say 2 fingers will beat a finger and the "new" thumb.

Paul, Paul, Paul....

You KNOW the guy on the floor can be a thumb. It is NOT beyond the original definition. No chance.

It is, however, beyond the intent of the bet. I thought a pole dominator would make it. That didn't happen (though I was rooting for 330 in Archimedes - they got tipped off the platform before hanging in the semis I think...)

We don't need to create new scenarios - we watched the finals. A Beast-of-all-trades allied with a hanging thumb was the winner. Agreed?

And nobody wins the bet cause we were both wrong....

Ken