[FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll

[Astronouth7303]

Selling it as a product has crossed my mind, but it is ok by the CS license. My own skill developement has not crossed my mind yet.

The unreal engine has a whole host of legal issues involved. Also, a 'mod' is considered significantly less than 'game'. (Which would you rather tell your friends? "I helped make the FIRST Video Game." "I helped make the FIRST Unreal Mod.")

I excpect that the diference of dificulty between Unreal and CS APIs are slim to none. CS has many of the Features that we need. While using Unreal would produce ultra-realistic scenes, there are 2 things that should be remembered: 1. that it can only do this on the best macines; 2. that it can only make it as good as the models.

Like I said earlier, if anyone can convince them to let the FIRST community is it for this dirt cheap, I will be more than happy to use it. but until then, I know I will not support it.

[Joe Ross]

What advantage does CS have over Quake II?

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

The unreal engine has a whole host of legal issues involved. Also, a 'mod' is considered significantly less than 'game'. (Which would you rather tell your friends? "I helped make the FIRST Video Game." "I helped make the FIRST Unreal Mod.")

"Total conversion" mods can be quite extensive--look at some of the Unreal variants out there, or at the variety of things that have been done with Quake. Also, as for the legality, one must consider that Epic provides an editor with their software. That could constitute some sort of implied consent; at the very least, it's clear that they won't sue you if you don't sell it.

In any case, I've got to point out that some of this sounds suspiciously like an issue of pride (which is fine, understandable and all that), but which also means that if you fail to make it work, the consequences w/r/t your pride may be more significant, because of higher expectations.

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

I excpect that the diference of dificulty between Unreal and CS APIs are slim to none. CS has many of the Features that we need.

True enough, but do you need API support beyond whatever scripting is provided in the Unreal editors? If this is truly so, then perhaps you're right about Crystal.

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

While using Unreal would produce ultra-realistic scenes, there are 2 things that should be remembered: 1. that it can only do this on the best macines; 2. that it can only make it as good as the models.

1. I've managed to run the old Unreal Tournament at 30 fps on a PII 450 with 384 MB RAM, and a 32 MB GeForce 2 MX (serving as host for a network game). That's the pride of 1998, with 2000's video card. It runs at about 20-25 fps on a PII 333 laptop with 192 MB, and an 8 MB Rage Pro. The dedicated server works on a Pentium 166 with 32 MB of RAM, even with a Windows 2000 session running (not blindingly fast, but certainly playable with those other two computers as clients--and the Windows 2000 thing is admittedly a bad idea on a computer of 1996 vintage). In all cases, graphical quality was nothing to be ashamed of--1024×768×16; and certainly no worse-looking than Quake II. Like I said, Unreal really is spectacularly efficient.
2. There's a bit of CAD and 3-D graphical design talent in the FIRST community--why not make use of it? The models can be as good as you need them to be (i.e. start with a box, and progress from there).

By choosing Crystal, you do have access to a reasonably complete feature set (to which you referred); you don't, however, have the assurance that the engine is stable and bug-free. With Unreal, you have a very large support community, and a proven technology, but are limited in what you can do to the actual code.

As I understand it, you want to make a 3-D simulation of a field/stadium, and populate it with robots and objects. Couldn't this be accomplished with an Unreal map mod, several new bots, a few objects like balls or goals, and an adjusted set of physics parameters? I still don't see exactly what you need to get into the source code for. If it's not the learning experience that is primarily driving you, why not take the slightly more straightforward route? Also consider that you can test models, game dynamics and all sorts of other issues in Unreal, then (if the Crystal feature set is to be believed), you should be able to port it to native Crystal, if things work out. It's like rapid application development....

Also, things like announcers aren't as simple as they appear. In the other thread, D.J. Fluck accused the EA Sports announcers of being stilted and unimaginative in their phrasing. This is true--but not for lack of trying (EA has tried play-by play since at least 1997, and it still isn't perfected.) There are hundreds of different phrases and names in NHL 2003 (for example); they have to be accessed on a moment's notice, and played in some coherent order. When Kaberle receives the puck, it doesn't help for the announcer to still be talking about Sundin--and if Kaberle holds onto the puck, the announcer can't just sit silently and say nothing. On the other hand, the implementation of play by play might be more than an Unreal mod can handle--so this could be a backhanded vote of confidence for Crystal (just brace yourselves for a vast library of sounds that can be pulled up instantly, and an algorithm to tie them together in coherent patterns).

Creating the game from raw source code is clearly the more significant achievement, but without having a true measure of everyone's committment to this project, I can't help but wonder if you are biting off more than you can chew. I don't by any means consider the use of Crystal to be impossible, only difficult. So as project leaders, it is upon you to know your (and your associates') capabilities, and choose the course of action that benefits the project the most. (If you haven't already come to some conclusions about each other's abilities and potential for improvement, now is the time for an honest discussion. Leave pride out of it for now.)

[Astronouth7303]

It's not a matter of biting off more than one can chew; it's eating it in managable pieces.

When I created this thread, my intent was the Unreal 2 engine. Meaning: If you go to the link in the first post, the actual Unreal engine that Epic licenses to other parties. My intention was NOT to use the UT and just mod it.

[Ryan M.]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

(If you haven't already come to some conclusions about each other's abilities and potential for improvement, now is the time for an honest discussion. Leave pride out of it for now.)

The people involved in this have a variety of abilities, which should allow us to do this. For instance, Astronouth is relatively new to C++, while have known it for years. On the other had, I'm not the greatest with graphics programming, ... etc. A single one of us might not be able to do it on our own, but it we work together, we can do this.

[Astronouth7303]

Some questions on modding Unreal:

1. Does it allow you to load characters, models, worlds, etc. at runtime?
2. Can you put in a 2D overlay? (Think driver's station view)
3. Does it allow dll plug-ins or provide OOP script support?

If you said no to any of these, reconsider your position.

Do you plan on helping us program? Because the programmers are the ones who need to know exactly what a given engine supports, how it expects data, and how flexible it is. If you are not a programmer or are not planning on helping us, then I ask that you take a less active role in this thread.

The question I have asked is primarily a programming one. Every resource group (audio, 2D, 3D) is affected by the fact that this affects what formats they can use, but the programmers are the most greatly directed in this decision.

[Tristan Lall]

I don't know all the answers for Unreal; here are some sites that will probably contain them. Note that these sites cater to modders and engine developers alike, but some content may not be available without licence. As to exactly what that content is, you'll need to take a look:

http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/WebHome
http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/PublicModResource

As far as I know, all of those things are possible with the engine, but I don't know whether they can be implemented in exactly that fashion in a mod. (The links ought to contain the answer.)

(Edit follows)
See http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=28 for more information: apparently these things are possible in a mod, via UnrealScript. (Except maybe .dll imports, but they would most likely be redundant, due to native formats.)

[ahecht]

I can't beleive that no one has mentioned the Quake II Engine. It is plenty advanced, and is available free under the GPL. See http://www.idsoftware.com/business/t...echlicense.php

[Astronouth7303]

Originally Posted by ahecht

I can't beleive that no one has mentioned the Quake II Engine. It is plenty advanced, and is available free under the GPL. See http://www.idsoftware.com/business/t...echlicense.php

Do you know where I can finde docs?

[Tristan Lall]

Further to my first post here:
Descent source code compiles with Watcom C++, for DOS.
Descent II source code compiles with Watcom C++, for DOS.
Quake and Quake II source code Quake II compiles with MS VC++ 6.0 for Windows. There's also a .NET port--maybe that's more like what you had in mind with Crystal.

[Ryan F.]

Just a thought...but shouldn't those who are going to be actually working on this the most be in charge of it? people like Astronouth7303, Texan and others seems to be the ones who will be pulling the most work...so I think in all rights they should be the ones to choose it.

[Ryan M.]

Originally Posted by rforystek

Just a thought...but shouldn't those who are going to be actually working on this the most be in charge of it? people like Astronouth7303, Texan and others seems to be the ones who will be pulling the most work...so I think in all rights they should be the ones to choose it.

We just want input by others. It may be that we make an executive decision and don't use Unreal, but we wanted to see what others would say.

-EDIT-
This post isn't endorsed by anyone else. Just have to note that...

[Tristan Lall]

You are, of course welcome to make executive decisions. It's your project, after all.

But wait, there's more!

Originally Posted by The Unreal Wiki

We now come to a fundamental difference between the Unreal Engine and most other first-person shooters. It's a difference which, in the opinion of many modders, makes working with Unreal much easier than with other engines.
The parts of the software that handle display on the screen (rendering), sound, and knowing where all these objects are, networking (clients and servers sending each other information about the objects) as well as anything else that is platform-specific, is written in C++. We call the "native" stuff. You can't see the code for this (it's "closed-source"), and hardly any of the work done by modders involves this.

The native software also creates a virtual machine, similar to the Java virtual machine. This is like a programming environment that sits on top of the native stuff. The language for this is UnrealScript; it's similar to Java and JavaScript. It is compiled into bytecodes, like Java, but the source remains visible, and it's this that allows the modding of the Unreal engine games. Tim Sweeney's Design goals for UnrealScript explain this idea further.

In very simple terms, every single object in the game is a piece of UnrealScript code. The engine runs all these scripts, and they decide what to do. So when the rocket hits a wall, a function in its script called something like HitAWall says: "I have hit a wall. I should now produce an explosion, make a noise, and remove myself from the game." How does the rocket know it hit a wall? The native part of the engine told it. How does the engine know? Every single moment of the game, it is checking where objects are and what they are touching.

Since UnrealScript is object oriented, you won't be editing any of the original source. This is different from Quake, where you edit the original source and then distribute a new DLL. In US, you will subclass the classes that shipped with Unreal Tournament, modifying them to suit your needs. – Tim Sweeney

It's just food for thought, nothing more.... (From here.)


Also, to put those comments on team-building and personnel issues in context, this is suggested reading. (I sumbit that it applies equally to a mod, a development of an engine, or a game-from-scratch.)

You are taking on a sizeable responsibility to your team by spearheading a project like this. Do whatever it takes to make it work for you. If that means Crystal, it means Crystal, if that means Unreal, then so be it. Evaluate the alternatives rationally, and thoroughly, because it will have been a relatively fruitless endeavour if at some point, you realize that you've dug yourselves a hole too deep, or run out of capabilities in the modding system.

In general, you know what you want out of this (though the specifics are evolving, you obviously have some sort of mental plan), and you must do the research, in order to make the best choice. Learn all about the alternatives, and choose wisely; don't rush the decision--this is too important to your success to make a mistake. If it means contacting some mod authors (see UnrealWiki), or Crystal developers to get an exact idea of what's what, from the real experts (as opposed to ourselves, who merely dabble in this stuff), do it.

I hope that these lengthy discourses haven't scared anyone away from expressing their own views on the subject; rather, I'm pointing out what needs to be considered for an undertaking of this magnitude. Along the way, I'm offering recommendations that can be accepted or ignored at will--it's not a personal affront in any sense. So, like Texan said, input from others might be useful here.

[Ryan M.]

I do suggest the everyone read the link of "suggested reading" in Tristan's post, especially the second section.

I appreciate all that you have said in this thread, Tristan. I don't feel "threatened" in anyway, and I don't think that any of the others do either. You are just forcing us to think things through completely, which is obviously a good thing.

[Mike Ciance]

Originally Posted by rforystek

Just a thought...but shouldn't those who are going to be actually working on this the most be in charge of it? people like Astronouth7303, Texan and others seems to be the ones who will be pulling the most work...so I think in all rights they should be the ones to choose it.

i'm sure there are plenty of people who are giving a lot of input, but don't want to be in charge of anything. it should be the people who want to take on the executive roles, and have the responsibility to, who actually do. Astronouth and Texan are putting in a lot of work, and they were the first to PM me when i said that people should do so to get involved. I've been trying to help in every way i can, but being that I still have 3 finals left to take, and that i have minimal programming experience, i haven't been able to do as much as they have. once we get a bunch of recruits i think we need to establish who will be in charge of what. there should be no one person in charge; no dictatorship; we need to have a small committee making all of the executive decisions by voting. i'd like to do some of the executive stuff (after all, this whole thing was my idea... ). most of all, i want to help with the organization of this whole thing. as my team role implies, i want to help with the communication aspect of all this, getting everybody to work together as one team. If we all work together, success is the only possible outcome.