Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

[Mike Schroeder]

well this can all go with the discussion, with how much like soccer do you want FIRST to become, it may get to the point where parents will start brawls in the bleachers

There are 2 reasons why there are rules... atleast 2 that i can think of... rules make the game more entertaining, and they are in place, for you (or the robots) saftey and protections, as a soccer ref, i cant even count how many times kids would walk onto my field without shinguards and cleats... i always threw them off, some did some didnt, they are required for a reason, reasons i have learned.

The Yellow and Red card is great it shows proof that the refs just do more than belly checks and count balls.


This is a game folks, and rules are rules, even if you kinda sorta broke one rule in the end its still broken

-Big Mike
Off to Fix my Rules... They are All Broken

I think the card system is great....too many times I have seen over the years teams disqualified for something that they were warned about several times and brushed off (then complained afterwards) and sometimes I have seen teams disqualified w/o any kind of warning because of what the other teams have done similar. Now with the new card system, teams will physically see the warning and know that the referees are serious truely serious. They will have a good enough warning and have no reason to complain about a DQ coming out of nowhere. Excellent idea and Id like to see it used in the upcoming FIRST season.

[JoeXIII'007]

I was not able to attend IRI, but I can tell that this is a badly needed system for all of FIRST competition. Excellent idea.

[ngreen]

I finally gathered a my thoughts about the card system at IRI. At the prompting of Aidan I submitted new rule <g35> . This is the card system. I have hit the wall several times on some of the issue you bring up. Do it penalize to much for minor infractions especially in the elims? Should there be different penalties for different things? If you notice, my first and second drafts even have a two match time limit. After watching it play out a IRI I think how it was handled was the fairest and best way to make the system work. I'll list some answers to my questions and then why I think IRI implementation worked the best.

About the penalizing for minor infractions, it could happen. Should it happen, maybe yes maybe no. At some point we as teams have to give some discretion to the referees and accept what they hand down. We can gain a feel for the calls refs throughout the day by the yellow cards they hand out. It is kind of like playing basketball. Some days the refs will "let them play" while other time they want to "be in control of the game". Refs use a lot of discretion in making calls and are expected to make fair and balanced calls. If they didn't we wouldn't love Andy so much.

In the thoughts of different cards for tipping or ramming or other illegal actions I think we shouldn't need to tell teams what they can't do. You should know and gain a feel of how tight they are calling it throughout the day. They keep slimming the rule book for a reason. For you will read it. That whole no entangling, tipping, ramming rule should be followed. I know it can be unintentional because of the distance, line of sight, and controls of the robot. But if you've been warned and you know I might entangle with, tip, or ram that robot that could cause possible harm to it and be DQed, you should stay a little farther away or be more cautious in your controls, aka not coming full speed towards them with your arm out towards them. So no seperate penalties, it's all against the rules. Plus it helps simplify the rulebooks that some people must use to level their workbench.

After watching IRI, I think that the yellow card should carry through both to the matches and elims. Unless the elims next year a greatly different that is how it should be. This makes it fair plus adds that new dimension to the game.

I thought it was implemented great at IRI. The refs and audience knew what was going on and had a great time. Hope to see it used in some form in the coming years. And since we are on the sports penalty topic, this year red cards(soccer) next year instant replay (football). j/k..I don't think we would want that. We would go from 8 matches a regional to 5 matches just for replay.

edit: Dez, I just don't see cards following to next competitions. Clean slate. Can you imagine getting a yellow card in a match in Sacramento but being DQed in ATL for the penalty carrying over. Each competition is seperate.

[Jim Zondag]

I thought the Yellow card/Red card system was great. FIRST has needed something like this for years. I think it was properly enforced at the IRI. The only change that I would make is that if FIRSt continues to award point penalties for other game violations (ie foot faults, robots in ball chute, etc) that there should also be a point penalty associate with a yellow card. After all, breaking the ball chute plane can cause you to lose if you get a penatly, but you more or less get one free game misconduct with a yellow card. A yellow card should have a negative point value so that it has risk of reversing the game outcome if it is awarded.

[R2K2D2]

I think that the card system is good and works well, however, once the criteria is created for what determines a yellow and red card, that needs to be fairly applied to all teams. *I am in no way attempting to discuss the specific call at IRI but solely for example sake, if one team "spears" a robot, every single team with an arm from there on out who "spears" a robot should be given a card, no questions asked. Like I think often times rules and DQ statements are given, but they are not followed up on all the time and where one robot gets called for entanglement (zone zeal) one round, the next round a team entangles and is not called on it or DQ'd. Whatever system is used, it has to be used all the time and there should be no slip-ups. I understand that calls are being made by judges and ref's who are only human, but there have bene evident times at competitions where some rule out on the field has been broken and warrants a DQ and then is not called, even tho it was called earlier in the competition.

just my 2 cents...

[suneel112]

In my opinion, if there is any doubt into whether there was any ill intention in "pushy" situations, the referees should penalize them. The refs' jobs/volunteer duties are to keep the FIRST competition friendly and graciously professional. I agree with the previous thread that ramming is illegal. FIRST components are not designed to withstand kinetic energies put on them.
If a robot is moving along and another robot puts its arm in the way and it gets knocked over, that is unintentional (no or low penalties).
If a robot backs up 10 feet and then cries "Charge!!", that is "ramming" and should have a high penalty, depending on the damage that it does. (ie tip over = yellow card. disable (electronic damage) = instant dq). If a robot is moving along and it gets some electrical damage, that is their fault, but if it gets charged, that isn't fair.
In addition, it should be illegal for a robot to lead with a "spear". while I don't doubt that team A had no intention of shutting off (or causing severe electrical damge to) team B, it definitely could have happened. If the claw had opened, and it had landed in the electronics, even if they tried to let go, it would have undoubtedly stripped team B's electronics. I would have felt terrible for team B if their robot got disabled that way and they had to miss out on being IRI champions.

But the Refs at IRI were great in that respect. They called penalties if they had the slightest doubt, which is what should be done. Hats off to them.