PHP Nuke

[Max Lobovsky]

I think all of you have some very big misconceptions about FIRST. Winning the robot part of the competition is not about learning or doing unneccesary work. It works just like "winning" in industry. You are given a goal with some simple restrictions. That's it. No one really cares how you get it done, just the fact that you get it done. If I can make a website based on a free CMS and make a more functional, content-rich, and aesthetically pleasing website, why should it matter?

There are very few rules restricting what can go on the robot beyond safety rules and rules that limit the advantage that teams with very large resources have. I don't see how disallowing (or frowning upon) freely available tools, tools that are available to real web developers, makes any sense.

[lookslikeapuma]

Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky

I think all of you have some very big misconceptions about FIRST. Winning the robot part of the competition is not about learning or doing unneccesary work. It works just like "winning" in industry. You are given a goal with some simple restrictions. That's it. No one really cares how you get it done, just the fact that you get it done. If I can make a website based on a free CMS and make a more functional, content-rich, and aesthetically pleasing website, why should it matter?

There are very few rules restricting what can go on the robot beyond safety rules and rules that limit the advantage that teams with very large resources have. I don't see how disallowing (or frowning upon) freely available tools, tools that are available to real web developers, makes any sense.

Here's a direct quote from the PhpNuke faq...
"Need I to know HTML to use PHP-Nuke?
The answer is no. You only need to know the basic functions to change somethings through the system administration included in PHP-Nuke. This system is designed to do all its jobs automated using your preferred web browser. You'll never need to edit files in your server."

"The Website Award recognizes excellence in student-designed, built, and managed FIRST team websites." Direct quote from the official document. Using a predesigned or built website would disqualify you. Does PHPNuke count as predesigned or built? In my opinion yes, it would be the same as getting a professional to build your site, and you add content to it (and maybe some little changes) I'm going to send an email to FIRST to clear things up though.

[briholton]

It's somewhat ironic to see people bashing the use of php nuke and other similar vehicles for website developement. Glad you are doing it on a site that is "powered by vBulletin"

Using something like phpnuke does not negate the use of dreamweaver, or coding raw code. Some people use it as a jump point, others just as it is "out of the box". Would you rather see a team that has no web skills have a lame site that has a front page saying "yes, we exist" but nothing else? I would rather see teams have sites that are useful to their team members, using whatever tools they have to make these. And if you have ever tried to seriously modify a portal system using php, you will find that you do indeed need to apply some serious php knowledge, not to mention the work that goes into customizing the site's look...... Themes from other developers are nice, but they too often serve as jump points.

As far as winning an award for best website using purely phpnuke, i doubt it - too limited. Morally, I guess it would be like someone winning the competition with a robot manufactured by a bunch of professional engineers. Oh, nevermind......

I agree with Max, professionals use the tools they have at their disposal.

[Noam Of Doom]

but why would people rather have a 2 minute website and actually learn and experience something from the whole business of building a website?

when i volunteered to be the Webmaster of our team, i knew very little HTML and stuff, through trying and experimenting i learned the works, i didn't retreat to a website wizard, which is by the way, lame...

building a site with VI in Unix is tru... anything else is for failures

[briholton]

PHP Nuke and other similar portal systems are not 2 minute websites, nor are they website wizards. Our team has put in over 100 hours of website development and yes, we used a portal system as our base. It probably would have been easier to do it from scratch, like we did last year, receiving our regional's best website award, but then we would not have had the experience of using a portal system and finding its limitations - and learning how to extend them.

Quite frankly, if you were a professional website developer, you would probably not use vi/unix. You would, if wise, use the best tools you could get to do the job in the most efficient manner. If vi works for what you do, good for you, for me, it would be horribly limiting. What works for one person, might not work for others.

To extend your learning, you might want to try doing a site using php Nuke or similar systems. It's really nice to see how others do things, and hacking the code to make it do what you want is quite educational.

BTW, i would love to see your site. Can you post the link?

Originally Posted by Noam Of Doom

but why would people rather have a 2 minute website and actually learn and experience something from the whole business of building a website?

when i volunteered to be the Webmaster of our team, i knew very little HTML and stuff, through trying and experimenting i learned the works, i didn't retreat to a website wizard, which is by the way, lame...

building a site with VI in Unix is tru... anything else is for failures

[Noam Of Doom]

yes, we are currently swaping hosts, but i hope in a few days it will be back up again

[probizzle]

Indeed, if you can use php nuke to hack up something thats meets your needs, more power to you.

I think the complaints people have had arise from those sites that are just slapped together using an available cms. Not many changes are made, and the website has no trace or originality.

However, if you tailor it to your needs, there is nothing wrong.
The point of doing anything is to learn, and writing a website in vi may just be doing tedious work you already know how to do. Editing a cms such as php nuke to fit your specific needs can be as big a learning experience.

[Red Dragon]

Granted using premade CMS systems (PHP Nuke, e107, portal mods for forums, mambo etc) are a major time saver, and most when modded some can work very well for quite a few applications, but there is still always a limit to how far it can go compared to something you made yourself.

for example about two years ago for some odd ball reason, i wanted to create a whole automated gaming league, php/mysql backed, CSS driven, complete with session and member management, and i hadnt a clue at the time on how to make any of those things. attempted to make one from scratch, but when you are starting out it can be pretty intimidating. so went with a forum system i liked, slapped a portal mod, and slowly began learning how everything went together and how it all interconnected.

this is what i started with
http://astralfoundry.com

this is what i ended with on that venture
http://mercarena.com

now 2 years later and many more sites and mad projects, after messing with a premade CMS and forum system, i have created my own (still rough but it works for a first attempt) that powers my teams new site
(demo here, http://universalwebsiteservices.com/robotics ) (please PM comments)

honestly, now from what i have learned from modding and redesigning most premade CMSs, other then just using them for a genaric site, they are worthless but they do make a great starting point for someone to learn how to make their own. IMHO i think, in general, that some rely too much on things like php-nuke(never cared for php-nuke at all, i think the whole phpbb backed system are next to worthless, extremely simple systems, horrible backends, but good article and download systems) when one can make their own, but everyones got to start somewhere.

FIRST is all about learning new things, if it teaches someone something and allows them at a later date to apply it for their own use, dont see why it shouldnt be used.

[Max Lobovsky]

I don't understand why people keep saying something like "premade CMSs may work, but it will never be as good as something homemade" when all the software being discussed is open source. You can take any of these "premade CMSs" and do whatever you like with them. In fact, all the better CMSs (not PHP nuke) with good APIs and module/plugin resources are designed to do just that. They take all the basic CMS stuff (database, session, user, etc management) out of the developer's hands and just lets them write the unique application they want to write.

[roboticsguy1988]

Ok...........this year i am using PHP-Nuke on our teams website. When i started it it was the first time i had used a CMS, so i didn't know about all the other better ones....... not to mention the ones that are fully validated.

Even though we use a CMS it STILL takes A-LOT of time to modify......... and mange.

After this season i think i am going to trash PHP-Nuke and go with another CMS. I say YES any website made with a CMS should be aloud to be entered........ people like me who use a CMS spend just as much time if not more working on there website as other people who do not use a CMS.

But my only suggestion is if your going to use a CMS DO NOT use PHP-Nuke!!!!

[Max Lobovsky]

Personally, I recommend PostNuke (www.postnuke.com). It's what our teams site is built on, and its what at least two team sites with awards are built on.

[roboticsguy1988]

Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky

Personally, I recommend PostNuke (www.postnuke.com). It's what our teams site is built on, and its what at least two team sites with awards are built on.

Is PostNuke fully validated by W3C standards?

[colt527]

I have always hated PHP-Nuke (please dont confuse me hating the program with me hating teams that use the program), I like to make everything my way. On my here I built my own CMS, which works very well for our purposes and is completly customizable because I wrote it. I can make it do whatever I want, which is much more powerful than any pre-made CMS. I also do not like the design of many pre-build CMS's ... I think it is in fact getting old, when I look at a site, I dont want to be BATTERED with tons of information ... words filling the entire screen. I want space for my eyes to wander, to look be pulled into the website. When I see a site with words all over and links to every think on everyside everywhere, I'm discouraged to look at it all. The over crowded look is out in my opinion.

What I really like to see in a site, is a design that flows, everything seems seemlessly connected. I view webdesign as a form of art that combines computer graphics with inforation like no other form of media can, and when the combination is perfect it really draws you in to read the site and take in the information available to you. With most CMSs and their premade cookie-cutter layouts, this is not accomplished. So from just a design stand point, I would discourage teams from using pre-made CMS.

After that nice long preface, here are my opinions on some of the points brought up:

I think all of you have some very big misconceptions about FIRST. Winning the robot part of the competition is not about learning or doing unneccesary work. It works just like "winning" in industry. You are given a goal with some simple restrictions. That's it. No one really cares how you get it done, just the fact that you get it done. If I can make a website based on a free CMS and make a more functional, content-rich, and aesthetically pleasing website, why should it matter?

Designing and maintaining a custom made CMS and knowing how to write internal scripts for a site, is just as big of a deal as making the design functional and pleasing to the eye. If you know the inner workings of you own CMS, then you can adapt your system to better suit your content and the way you post your content. If you worked at a highly user-interactable site company, you would need to make the inner workings of your site as efficient as possible! Also, my usual argument, someone had to write the pre-made CMS, someone has to learn how to write the pre-made CMS's of the future.

Again, if you can't build a site better than a phpnuke template, you have a long way to go my friend.

I stated my opinion on most pre-made CMS designs, I think the perfect website, has the functionality of a CMS, but looks like it is a normal site. .. And yes some of the phpnuke templates are very lame


Ok, i'm tired of typing, maybe i'll post more later