[moderated]: A call for an end to inconsistency (sticking up for G25)

[meaubry]

sw293,
Please be careful when posting about what the ref's are doing when they deciding on a 30 pt penalty. I will give you your opinion about what you think they are thinking - I don't necessarily agree with your analysis, but you are allowed to form your opinion.
The ref's might simply be indicating that the team violated a rule in which 30 pts is the penalty.
I can't read their minds, and I wouldn't want to put words in their mouths.
Intent is a difficult thing to judge, that is why this rule is a tough one on everyone involved. Watching many many matches over the years, I have come to one conclusion - intent is determined by those that are doing, not those that are watching.

[z3ro nightmare]

speaking as a student from team 79, of course we were dissapointed on the call, and wish there could be a more definite way to call these, but it comes down to a judgement call. i am extremely proud of the rest of our team and our alliance, and everyone at the competitions.

congrats to our alliance partners 107 on the sportmanship award. but our team is not going to let this bring us down, to us, we see it as we beat the two hghest teams (or almost did) and at nationals we will only do better. we have shown alot of people what krunch is capable of, and hopefully the calls in atl will lean more to a defensive stratagy. congrats to the winning alliance, they were all incredible robots.

see you at nationals

~jim
team 79 VP

[Guyute]

So far as I have read this thread when most people are talking about the G25 they inquire the tipping of a robot and intentional damage. During that match 71 was not tipped over nor was there any extensive damage(correct me on that if i'm wrong). I agree there was a lot pushing between the two teams but neither one actually fell over. I felt inconsistancy was a big problem. If 'Agressive Defense' was the case why wasn't it applied in the round before? On a smiliar subject I didn't exactly understand that after the second match during the finals why it was announced that 'A robot should have been disabled so we are going to replay the match.' There was no mention of which team commited the foul nor specifically what they did. I've seen at IRI Andy Baker, has gone over to the microphone when the crowd disagreed with the refs and explained himself .

[sw293]

Originally Posted by meaubry

sw293,
Please be careful when posting about what the ref's are doing when they deciding on a 30 pt penalty. I will give you your opinion about what you think they are thinking - I don't necessarily agree with your analysis, but you are allowed to form your opinion.
The ref's might simply be indicating that the team violated a rule in which 30 pts is the penalty.
I can't read their minds, and I wouldn't want to put words in their mouths.
Intent is a difficult thing to judge, that is why this rule is a tough one on everyone involved. Watching many many matches over the years, I have come to one conclusion - intent is determined by those that are doing, not those that are watching.

We are not talking about a thirty point penalty either. We are talking about disqualification.

The fact that intent is so difficult to judge is exactly why refs should apply this rule only in the most blatant and obvious situations. If there is a question as to what the team might have intended, the benefit of the doubt should be given to the team. The ref should always assume that both teams are observing gracious professionalism, and he should not deviate from that assumption unless he is given clear and convincing evidence to the contrary. Otherwise gracious professionalism is just a cheap campaign slogan.

Twelve jurors must agree beyond a reasonable doubt for a court of law to determine affirmatively the intent of a criminal. In FIRST, one head ref can decide the intent of a team by using his own discretion. That is why he should be very cautious in making such calls.

[Jon K.]

I would just like to say, that I personally know some of the refs and Head refs at these events, and most of them have been with the FIRST program for a little bit of times, some this might be their first year with FIRST. Asking refs to make a call is a very difficult position for them to be in, especially when a call would have to be made either against or "for" an old team. I know many of the refs do read the manuals before hand and do have a great grasp on the rules. While I do not know what went on this past weekend, I do know what it is like to be on the receiving end of a penalty that cost a match, and on the receiving end of penalties that almost have cost a match in the finals. If your drive team feels that they have had a call unfairly made against their team, then it is their responsibility to go up to the head ref and ask for a clarification of the call. The Head refs are usually more then willing to explain the call to them if they ask about it. And this shouldn't be an adult going and accusing the refs of poor judgment. This should be a STUDENT MEMBER of your drive team, after calming down of course, simply going up to the Head ref and asking why they received a penalty, and why they feel they did not deserve it, if after receiving clarification they feel otherwise. I know at the Chesapeake regional, RAGE was on the receiving end of a call we were unsure of, and it was a 30 point penalty as well as a 10 pointer, I believe called with G25 as its base. We had won the match, but still had questions as to why the calls had been made, I was the coach for my team and the alliance captain, and I went up after cooling down, and simply went up to Aidan and asked for a clarification even though the outcome would not have been effected, and he was more then willing to give me an explanation, and the ruling was based on a call that neither myself nor the drivers could see. We had backed up into a team that was in the loading zone, and we didn't know they were there. It was a legitimate call and we accepted it. While the adult mentors may get upset at this, being a student and coach, I knew the rules, and I had no issue with the ruling as it was called, and as such I went to my team right after the match and explained the reasoning behind the call, and they then realized it and calmed down.

Basically what I am trying to say is, have a STUDENT go up to the Head ref and ask them about the call, and then have that same student explain the ruling to the team. It usually helps to calm mentors down a bit when they see a student calm about a call.

Also it isn't the responsibility of the Ref to explain their actions, they shouldn't have to. They should have the respect of every one in that venue, because they are the ones who are visibly working the hardest during those 2 days(I say visibly because I know there are people working just as hard all 3 days, but they are more behind the scenes, like the regional directors and all the other volunteer support staff at the events.), and they usually show up on Thursday whenever possible to get a feel for how the game will be played out.

I would just like to give my sincerest gratitude to the referees and thank them for all their hard work and effort that they put forth to make these event what they are.

[Scott team 48]

I have two things in my head after reading this thread:
First: As a participant in the Buckeye Regional I was pleased for the most part with the reffing that went on, the parts I wasn't pleased on I came to the conclusion that I won't always be pleased and I move on. However, I do feel that if something displeases everybody, or almost everybody, than something should be done. I feel that at the driver meeting, at the beginning of the competition, the ref's should define what they feel aggressive driving is, and they should all define it the same. Our ref's were fair and did give a lot of warnings, there was a team (not pointing out #'s) who the ref's felt was designed solely to tip other robots over, and they gave them a warning that if they tipped a robot over they would be DQ'ed. They told them before they did it, and that team had a chance to correct a potential problem. Good job Ref's.
Second: Anyone who says that Travis is a bad mentor obviously doesn't know Travis. Travis works his tail off for our team day in and day out and we would be lost without him. Saying that Travis is a bad mentor hurts me, and I'm sure it hurts Travis. How many people do you know that will help you debug the program while your in Cleveland and he is in China? Not many, but Travis did last year. Travis is just trying to bring a problem into the light that can be quickly and (hopefully) easily corrected before anyone gets hurt by inconsistent calls made on the field. He didn't start this thread to bash anybody, nor did he do it to criticize the ref's, he did it because he cares about everybody involved in FIRST and he would hate to see bad blood cause the loss of teams. I don't need to talk to Travis to know this because I know Travis, and he doesn't do things to intentionally upset people, he is only trying for the greater good.

If my post has offended anyone, I'm sorry but thats just how I feel.
Travis, I support you 110% and I'm sure that I'm not alone in this.

[Steve W]

Consistency is all that is being asked for. This must come from the top with clear defined rules. I have ranted on this many times already so I will not continue along that line any longer.

The refs are volunteers. They always try their best. They don't always get the same direction. They don't always come to events with a full understanding of the rules. They have probably the hardest job in FIRST. No ref is really appreciated by both alliances all the time. Every call has 3 sides, mine, yours and theirs. I do not believe that refs pick on any team. We NEED to give them the best support that we can. Now let's see if FIRST can give them the same or more support.

[Ricky Q.]

My earlier post in this thread was my rant. I deleted it because I do not think my ranting about something that I cannot fix will help anything.

Are there issues? Yes. Will there always be issues? Yes. Impulse responses are not the way to fix these issues.

Until I can think of a miracle way to fix everything, I will keep my ranting to myself.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by robo hottie71

Were those the right calls? Maybe, maybe not. Are we lucky that no one got seriously hurt? Probably. Should FIRST have realized that much scoring would take place at the wall with robots that have the ability to extend well above the top of the wall? ABSOLUTELY. Whether we have been playing for 4 weeks or not shouldn't matter at all - there needs to be a remidy made for next week or surely the Championship with some sort of ceiling.

Stu is exactly right- there is no rule. I suppose you could call this a gray area, created by FIRST? Another G25-esque rule that is left in the hands of the referees to make a judgment call?

I find it particularly irritating that people are comparing regional to regional when there is obviously no consistency at the regionals. FIRST is not infallible. Nobody is. Why should we assume that they are? Mistakes are always made, no matter whom is making them, and this needs to be realized in every single thread being made about this subject.

Has there never been a gray area created by FIRST? Has a referee never had to make a judgment call on a rule that does not completely cover an incident that might happen? It happens every year. Many people seem to single out regionals for their inconsistency, but I fail to see why this has any relevance. The referee crews were not the same. People are not the same. Every call that a referee makes is a judgment call, on whether or not they think a violation has happened. It happens. Life goes on.

In my first year of FIRST, I didn't understand gracious professionalism. At the last event of that year, a call was made on my team that cost us the win. In a fit, I stormed out of the event and sat on the bus, refusing to recognize those who won. Someone said to me, "The only thing that is making us look like losers is your inappropriate behavior". I'd like to think that gave me a lot better perspective on FIRST.

If the CD community is looking for ways to spend their energy after regionals, thank you threads are a good way to start. Posting on CD, yelling at competitions, and publicly stating that you are unsatisfied with gameplay, referee calls, and events has very little purpose. There is no obligation from FIRST to read what is written on these forums and make a clarification.

For being inspired students and mentors, we sure don't act that way a lot of the time. We're fallible. We get passionate, we act out, we don't think. We run across the field screaming/cursing at the referees and we expect FIRST to have a plentiful supply the next year. Many of the people who are giving knee-jerk reactions here on CD need to have their reflexes checked.

I don't agree with things that happen at events, but I'm also not one to cuss referees, sit in the stands, or complain for too long. It happens. Another FIRST kickoff comes around, we are excited again, gray areas are created.

Life goes on. FIRST goes on. And regardless of the bad calls, unclarified rules, 'bad' kit parts, gray areas, aggressive play, inappropriate behavior, inconsistent referees, and medals-that-should-rightfully-go-to-another-team comments, I come back every year. I hope everyone else posting here does, too.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

For being inspired students and mentors, we sure don't act that way a lot of the time. We're fallible. We get passionate, we act out, we don't think. We run across the field screaming/cursing at the referees and we expect FIRST to have a plentiful supply the next year. Many of the people who are giving knee-jerk reactions here on CD need to have their reflexes checked.

I'll agree, to a point. Humans, by nature, get emotional about things. Especially these 120-pound pieces of metal, plastic, and occasionally wood that we put together. So if something that someone feels shouldn't happen happens that involves the aforementioned 120-pound creation, I would be more surprised if they didn't react with some degree of negative feeling (inward or outward). Perhaps that's not how it should be in the world--but it's how it is in the world.

That being said, let's watch out for each other. If you sense someone's about to lose their cool with someone else, pull 'em aside and let them air it out between the two of you. Whether they're right and need to alert someone quickly or are wrong and just need a deep breath and a Mountain Dew, odds are that you'll be helping them cool off to the point that their beef (real or imagined) is at least processed enough to be edible.

I hope this post made sense--great posts are not meant to be made at two in the morning. But to put it simply, don't let your friends and teammates get too steamed about things in FIRST. It's supposed to be something we enjoy doing, remember?

[krunch79prez]

As a member of Team 79 and one who was standing there on the field I will admit I was blown away when the score came up in our final match at the Midwest Regional. Our alliance team 648, 79, and team 107 played to the best of our abilities and we lost. Do I have opinions on the match? Well of course I do, but I'm not going to express them because it is over and I understand that. I just want everyone posting to move on because yes G25 is a judgement rule and yes the ref's made a judgement call on the match. Teams 71, 111, and 537 had a great two days and won the regional fair and square, and they all have great robots. The refs are doing the best they can do and I thank them for coming out and volunteering for us.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is can we please move on. I have moved on and I'm just gearing up for nationals so we can prove ourselves again and play against great teams like 71, 111, and 537. Or play with great teams like 648 and 107.

In closing I once again want to say congrats to teams 71, 111, and 537 on a great regional and victory, thank the refs and judges for their time and effort. And to be given the chance to play against two national champs at one time and have amazingly fun, competitive matches against them. They earned it, we lost, lets all move on. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Brent Herold
Team 79 President

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by krunch79prez

In closing I once again want to say congrats to teams 71, 111, and 537 on a great regional and victory, thank the refs and judges for their time and effort. And to be given the chance to play against two national champs at one time and have amazingly fun, competitive matches against them. They earned it, we lost, lets all move on. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Brent Herold
Team 79 President

Brent,
I can only tell you that we feared you throughout the competition. You have an awesome machine. We also have a healthy respect for Holland 107 and 648. You all were in the finals because you deserved it. I was cheering for you when you played and will continue to do so. Good Luck in Atlanta!