This year we need instant replay

[Andy Baker]

For those who wish to implement instant replay in FIRST, I suggest you do 1 of 3 things:

1. Volunteer as a referee. VIMS is up and running. Sign up for a regional, help out, and learn from an experienced head ref. Your opinions about instant replay will become more credible if you are an experienced FIRST ref.

2. Create an off-season competition and implement tweaks to FIRST's rules as you wish. If you want to add instant replay to the game, go right ahead. Just make sure the teams know of this adjustment when they sign up for your event.

3. Convince someone else who runs an off-season event to implement instant replay. Offer to run this system for them, by providing the plan, equipment, and implementation details. Don't just say "you need to do this", but rather offer a solution and provide the resources to get it done. Also, don't assume that if you offer a complete package that this will be accepted by the people hosting this event. (the people who put on these off-season events have enough to worry about without this as an additional thing)

Reffing a FIRST event is unlike being an ump or a ref at any other event. Where else is a game invented each year and over 1000 teams play this game within 3 months of its birth? Game interpretations and rules are not always black and white. Instant replay will not solve disagreements with calls, it is as simple as that. If you do not understand this, please look to doing items 1 or 2 above.

Andy B.

[petek]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

For those who wish to implement instant replay in FIRST, I suggest you do 1 of 3 things:

1. Volunteer as a referee. VIMS is up and running. Sign up for a regional, help out, and learn from an experienced head ref. Your opinions about instant replay will become more credible if you are an experienced FIRST ref.

2. Create an off-season competition and implement tweaks to FIRST's rules as you wish. If you want to add instant replay to the game, go right ahead. Just make sure the teams know of this adjustment when they sign up for your event.

3. Convince someone else who runs an off-season event to implement instant replay. Offer to run this system for them, by providing the plan, equipment, and implementation details. Don't just say "you need to do this", but rather offer a solution and provide the resources to get it done. Also, don't assume that if you offer a complete package that this will be accepted by the people hosting this event. (the people who put on these off-season events have enough to worry about without this as an additional thing)

Reffing a FIRST event is unlike being an ump or a ref at any other event. Where else is a game invented each year and over 1000 teams play this game within 3 months of its birth? Game interpretations and rules are not always black and white. Instant replay will not solve disagreements with calls, it is as simple as that. If you do not understand this, please look to doing items 1 or 2 above.

Andy B.

Amen, Brother!

In 2005 I volunteered at the NJ and Philly regionals (field reset & robot insp respectively), and after finding myself second-guessing the refs, decided I should walk in their shoes a bit - so I reffed at PARC and Ramp Riot. After that experience I decided that Triple Play was designed primarily to challenge the refs and scorekeepers! That is one tough game to ref fairly, not made any easier during the early season by constant rules "clarifications".

Even if instant replay could be instituted without adding 5 minutes per match I am certain that there would be fewer volunteers, more rather than less contention and a whole lot less fun had by all. If people really want to see "better" refereeing, they should see what they can do to help FIRST make better (more clear-cut) rules and get the bugs out before competition begins.

Proving my inability to learn from experience, this year I'm on VIMS for three regionals where I requested to ref, and am head ref for the DE FVC event. I'm curious to know what those who want instant replay are doing this year?

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by petek

Proving my inability to learn from experience, this year I'm on VIMS for three regionals where I requested to ref, and am head ref for the DE FVC event. I'm curious to know what those who want instant replay are doing this year?

Once again, let me clarify that I'm not specifically in favour of instant replay for a given game, though I think that it's worth looking into, provided that reasonable limits are specified for its use.

Now with that said, I'm not unaware of what it takes to be an official. I've twice been a ref at the Wonderland invitational, I was both an inspector and assistant scorekeeper at the last GTR, and assistant scorekeeper and head inspector at Waterloo. I'll probably be doing the same this year, and maybe also at one other event. (Actually, I've also umpired baseball, and refereed at the Toronto Kickoff Challenges.)

[Collmandoman]

can you see another robot hit another with one camera over a field.. in fact several things can be seen-- but this is not the main thing.. for instance I have seen several mathes that have just not been socred correctly - some resulting in another team losing -
EXAMPLE - Lets take the 2005 game- Some teams would descore tetras while trying to cap their own-[but we all know the decapped team owns that goal] but that was just never taken into account.. and it compl confused the scoring -- and even with all the refs looking at the field... the right calls were not made.. is this the refs fault? sorta, but mostly not- the limit or accuracy of a volunteering ref is less than if they were paid -- couple that with several rules that don't come up often .. and you can get yourself into a mess.. VIDEO REPLAY would be to aid them -- it would also be for the other rare cirumstances when the rules of the game are ridiculously not upheld, bc of refs looking the wrong way or what not... and a team wanting to challenge the call...
so listen... you don't need 39 cameras strategically placed to hit every angle.. if it can't be solved with one camera above the playing field -- then it makes sense the ref missed it... you smell what I'm stepping in!?

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

so listen... you don't need 39 cameras strategically placed to hit every angle.. if it can't be solved with one camera above the playing field -- then it makes sense the ref missed it... you smell what I'm stepping in!?

You've restated your point. Since you are passionate about this, I suggest you create a detailed plan including logistics, equipment, costs, and implementation factors. Get into the details. For instance, how many "challenges" does each team get per competition (similar to NFL coaches getting 2 challenges per gam)?

Once you do your homework, put your findings into a white paper and post it so more FIRSTers can see your work. If feasible, the plan will get better with more input. More detailed feedback will be received this way, and we all could be convinced if this is even a possibility. Sell it to the rest of us. Be productive as opposed to simply suggesting that this must happen.

Andy B.

[Stu Bloom]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

... you smell what I'm stepping in!?

Yeah, well you're definitely stepping in something !

It sure is easy to sling all of this smelly stuff when you hide behind a screen name on some forum, with NO identifying information in your profile.

AND ... I was going to reply personally and directly to you ... but since you don't accept any messages or emails thru this site I have no choice but to respond publicly:

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

Did you intend for that to be negative feedback? If so, while I respect your right to your opinion of my opinion, I value
Dave Lavery's opinion MUCH more.

BTW ... how many matches have you refereed?

And one more thing ... PLEASE re-read Andy's posts above and see if you can't take his advice. We might all be better off for your efforts.

[EricH]

I see three sides to this. One is the team who loses on what they see as a bad call and asks for a replay. Another is the refs' side. The third is the team who has the replay go against them. For the team who asks, instant replay would solve the problem of losing (maybe). For the refs, each individual replay is a new piece of hassle, more teams mad at them, and they still have many more matches to go.

But what about the team that loses due to replay? No one has brought them up yet. How would they feel? They would most likely feel bummed that they lost, probably angry at the refs, and possibly annoyed enough to quit FIRST. Then where does the inspiration go for that school?

I have only reffed at an FLL scrimmage between two teams from the same school. That was hard enough. Having to note when to remove scoring objects and dealing with field damage that could affect points was annoying enough. I didn't have teams coming to me and complaining and asking for instant replay. I know this is FLL, but I think that just from that, I am not sure I want to even attempt reffing a FRC event. I am amazed that the refs even volunteer for these tough calls. Why make their job harder by using instant replay?

If instant replay would make things easier on everyone, I personally would probably say go for it, but it will make things harder on at least one group of the three covered above, and it will disappoint one of the other groups.

[Collmandoman]

ok then

pls don't use my name - for reasons that are very personal - and I'm not going to explain to you or anyone, and I hope you honor that

also don't post peoples rep messages - I believe that is a forum rule

thank you,
me

You may reach me on aim at stealingshrimp

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

So lets say I post on a forum, and I break a rule... I should be reprimanded in some way. Now lets say someone else does, (look above) - and it's not noticed. Do we need instant replay for that? Maybe? Also, neither of you know me well enough to use my name on this forum - so please don't.

If we do not know you well enough to use your name, certainly we do not know you well enough to consider your opinion.

Unfortunately, we can't do anything about people having opinions about all sorts of things they're genuinely unqualified to speak about; however, we can choose when to ignore those people.

[Jay H 237]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

So lets say I post on a forum, and I break a rule... I should be reprimanded in some way. Now lets say someone else does, (look above) - and it's not noticed. Do we need instant replay for that? Maybe? Also, neither of you know me well enough to use my name on this forum - so please don't.

I'm not sure whar you're talking about.

If you do have a problem with another member you should privately take it up with one of the mods and not post about it on the open forum.

[Matt Krass]

Agreed, taking it out in public is no better than your complaint, take it to a mod.

Now on to the real topic at hand, I severely doubt we'll have instant replay, its a waste of time and resources and would simply cause trouble. Life isn't fair, FIRST isn't fair, sometimes things we don't like happen, deal with it.

Seriously, I find it kind of...well...stupid when teams persue things like call disagreements for weeks after the fact, and instant replay would just make more headaches.

[Collmandoman]

OK I'm going to skip taking this to a white-paper-(bc it's not that formal)

What is needed --

One video camera
Addition of Instant Replay clauses in rules
One person who knows how to work the camera( on the ref team)
Small addition to scoring software

How does this work --

Pre competition the ref teams decides on a location for the video camera. To keep this cheap there will not to be a need for remote viewing. The camera needs to be put in a location that shows the hold field at the least and offers the least ammount of 'other object impedence'. (by this I mean, objects in the foreground bloking the line of site of object behind them -- this can be achieved by having a camera over the playing field) There is a problem to this, getting a camera above the playing field and gaining quick access to it. So, the ref team would need to find the best suitable location that is quick and easy to gain access to.

Teams have an unlimited ammount of chances to contest a ruling on the field.
Pressure from the audience and GP will keep this from turning into having every match contested.

Things that can be contested -
Inaccruate scoring
Rule violations that were called, that a team feels were incorrectly called
EXTREME rule violations that were missed- that affected the outcome of a match - (example - a robot hits another high and knocks it over - and leaves it disabled for the rest of the match - and it was missed by the refs) also things that jeopardized the safety of individuals that was missed--

What can result from replay-
1 Indisputable evidence supporting the challenging team.
2 Indisputable evidence showing the challenging team was incorrect.
3 Not enough evidence to support challenging teams claim.

In the case of 1. The refs meet quickly to make the appropriate adjustments to the score.
In the case of 2. The challenging team takes a qualifying score of 0 for the match.
In the case of 3. Nothing, moves on just as it would have without replay.

Entire alliances must agree on whether or not to challange. If one team is unwilling, then the alliance can not challenge. So this will be another check in an alliance wanting to challenge.

The head ref takes the camera and the second ref in charge takes responsibilities for cleaning up the field and progressing to the next match. The ref makes a decision and announces it to the crowd, and the appropriate scores are given.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

What is needed --

One video camera

I suggest you revisit the first page of this thread.

I'll save you the time though--ONE CAMERA IS NOT ENOUGH

[Collmandoman]

Originally Posted by Cory

I suggest you revisit the first page of this thread.

I'll save you the time though--ONE CAMERA IS NOT ENOUGH

I respectfully disagree... if you need 4 cameras to sort out a problem.. there is a reason the refs missed the call..
I'll refer you to soap coverage of matches, one camera catches the entire field - I don't believe needing to get close enough to see the bearings gearboxes to be important. The issue that are usually contested are visable from 50 feet away.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

I respectfully disagree... if you need 4 cameras to sort out a problem.. there is a reason the refs missed the call..
I'll refer you to soap coverage of matches, one camera catches the entire field - I don't believe needing to get close enough to see the bearings gearboxes to be important. The issue that are usually contested are visable from 50 feet away.

The SOAP feeds are mostly a composite of multiple cameras, with at least one operated by a human. As I noted earlier, that human doesn't know what to film, since they don't know anything about FIRST.

If you had one stationary camcorder sitting above the field, you won't be able to see squat.

The math has been done. It's been posted twice. What else is there to say?