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#31
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
I would argue that it is not/should not be vengeance that guides us in these matters, but deterrence. If Mr. Williams life had been spared then we are only sending a message to future potential criminals that they will not be held accountable for their actions, thus further eroding the "effectiveness of our criminal justice system".
Another example of how well deterrence works ... My father-in-law worked in Iran for a couple of years (15-20 years ago) and personally witnessed public executions (beheading) for rape and other violent crimes, and cutting off of hands for stealing ... etc ... By his account the crime rate there was very low. |
#32
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
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The fact of the matter is, you'll never be safe from terrorists, because there are too many of them, and they will forever be able to cause havoc in innovative and unexpected ways. So why obsess over it? If it's the loss of American lives that concerns the nation, why not campaign aggressively against smoking, or improve automobile safety? At least then, the benefits will be tangible, and substantially more significant to the well being of the locals. And that brings up another problem: what to do about the loss of life in general? After all, we hear plenty about how America is safer for Americans; but if you're going to invade another country, unless you follow the Ghengis Khan school of thought, it's very much your responsibility to plan for the bloodbath that might well ensue. When America went marching into Iraq on a platform of "fighting terror" and "searching for WMDs", it's relatively obvious that they didn't anticipate staying as long as they have, and having the blood of thousands on their hands, just a few years later. America has committed itself to an unwinnable conflict, which has the potential to exist in perpetuity, so long as ideologues on both sides refuse to seek common ground. The only way to win a war on terrorism, is to fight a different battle: earn the respect of those with whom you would do battle, and come to a consensus. Obviously, this is not an overnight solution; it is a long-term goal, which may require decades, or even centuries, if history is any indication. In the mean time, America must stop living for the cheap thrill of dominating over hapless despots, and pursue policies that earn the trust of other nations, lest they be doomed to do battle over their differences later. If it is in the interest of human rights, to depose a dictator or junta, then seek the opinion of all of the stakeholders; if it's in the interests of promoting an ideology and political message (e.g. "War on Terror"), forget about it. Quote:
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There's no fine line between torture and aggressive interrogation; but who speaks for the prisoners, when the loosely defined boundaries are pushed too far? Who speaks for the prisoners, when they're held too long? Isn't it valid to note that what may not be torture when applied once, can be rather torturous when applied over a period of several years of incarceration? One of the most grevious injustices against the American prisoners, is the unavailability of proper legal representation, in a court of competent jurisdiction. If they're war criminals or terrorists, charge them, try them, and prove it. If they're prisoners of war, then, by definition, America must be at war with their country of origin, in order to hold them—since it is not, they are being held in violation of the spirit of the historically recognized conventions of war. The "enemy combatant" designation is not a recognized one—it's simply a construct designed to avoid the procedures established for the protection of the imprisoned; as such, it is fundamentally contrary to their rights as individuals. Terrorists have rights, too, insofar as they are entitled to certain "unalienable Rights", simply as members of the species; to claim otherwise is to reduce yourself to their level, by adopting barbarism when it is convenient to avoid the niceties that society provides for everyone. And now, we return to our regularly scheduled discussion of Mr. Williams, already in progress.... |
#33
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
Sorry to continue off topic ... but I have to say it ...
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#34
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
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You're right...I did dismiss them, because Iraq and China are not the US. There is absolutely no similarity between our governments, societal values, or culture in general. When you can find a statistic that shows that capital punishment in the United States of America is an effective deterrent, I'll be glad to listen to what you have to say. Until then, you're presenting nothing more than anecdotal evidence that is entirely irrelevant to the situation at hand. Last edited by Cory : 12-14-2005 at 05:54 PM. |
#35
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
If loseing lives is the major issue, why not push for global gun ban. It would stop all the killing. If you think it would be a probem to get other countries to listen to you, you form a trade embargo along with other aligned/UN countries against a select country(ies). A potential peacful solution to world politics.
edit: I missed when it switched away from being about Mr. Williams |
#36
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
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Wetzel |
#37
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
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oops! you were the one who brought up the crime rates in other nations to compare to the US. Why do you get to choose which nations the US can be compared to, and which ones are not relavant to this discussion?! |
#38
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
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Ok--throw out my comments. It doesn't matter, since we're trying to focus on a purely domestic issue. We shouldn't need any international perspective. This debate pertains to whether or not capital punishment is an effective deterrent inside the US. I have so far not seen a single ounce of evidence from you that this is so (remember...you made this claim, therefore the burden of proof is on you). You continue to debate semantics about sidetracked conversations that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. |
#39
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
Back on the topic for Mr. Williams for a moment, the one point about the death penalty that I surprisingly have not yet seen arise is how many people are put to death and then late found innocent of the crime which they were killed for. They all went down pleading innocence. Ignoring entirely my personal moral beliefs, this simple fact seems enough to me for the end of the system. Even if we are saying a life for a (some) life(ves), how can you justify that with so many people who have been killed now having evidence found that they were innocent?
[Personal belief time, not necessarily backed by fact as above statement was] As (I believe it was) Bill said, the only real time that one really ought be not horrifically punished for killing another is in self defense. There have been numerous studies that tell that the defense of one's own life is the only natural instinct: survival. Anyone who truly believes in the death penalty must be willing to die themselves. If someone is given the death penalty, someone has to push the button to give them the injection. The button pusher therefore is a murderer himself and must now be killed. He knew about this ahead of time and had everything planned out and did it all in sound conscience. And so on and so on until all but 1 person who believes in the death penalty are killed. But they have a right to kill that person some may say. Who determines the right to kill? Who says "you may kill" "you may not"? Who has the right to say who will live or die? Some of you are arguing that capitol punishment is a way to detur murderous crime. It isn't though. You're solving a murder with a murder. Most people who commit these murders probably are not the type that think like most of society anyways because most of society does not go around killing each other. So you can't say "well this will scare most people from commiting murder" because the people commiting these murders, in doing so, have rejected the view of most of society who wouldn't have done what the murderer did in the first place. (sorry, that was a really bad run on sentance) FINAL STATEMENT FOR THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO READ THAT WHOLE THING: There are too many problems with the death penalty for it to seriously be used. Period. |
#40
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
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Capitol punishment is the law of the land. At the state and federal level the people we have elected and appointed to study this issue and reach the proper conclusions have made their decisions. If you and hollywood actors and the media want the law to be changed, then the burden of proof is on you. |
#41
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
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Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary: "the crime of unlawfully killing a person esp. with malice aforethought" When the law allows the death penalty, the executioner is performing a legally-mandated killing and is therefore not a murderer. The majority of killings in this country are not murder. Many of them are accidents; some of them are manslaughter, a lesser crime than murder. And not all murders are intentional (example: an armed bank robber killing someone in the course of committing the robbery, and claiming it was unintentional, will still be held liable for first-degree murder unless the court is very liberal). In 2004, there was a shoot-out at our motel during a regional competition. Fortunately, most of the team was at the stadium and was not exposed to the danger. This is what happened: a man was misbehaving in the motel lobby. The police came and tried to deal with him. He pulled a gun on them. A running gun battle ensued from the motel lobby, across the front courtyard, alongside some of our rooms, and into the rear parking lot, where the police finally killed him. Now, the guy was probably on drugs or crazy or something, so it's too bad this happened, but what else could the police do? Let him go on shooting up the motel? Would you call the police "murderers" because they were defending themselves and the immediate community (motel staff and guests) from a clearly dangerous person? (I have pictures of the bullet holes in the wall 2 rooms down from the room where one of our team moms cowered during the shooting; a light fixture was shattered just outside the door of the room where our vice-principal was.) Please be careful of how you use words. "Murder" is being expanded by some people to include any kind of killing, including killing of animals, or even plants. Overused, the word can lose its meaning and make rational discussion of this subject difficult or impossible. Another point about the executioner: By instituting a governmental justice system, society takes vengeance for killings out of the hands of the victim's immediate friends and family, thereby curtailing the endless "eye for eye" cycle. Whatever flaws our justice system has, it is still much more impartial -- police, courts, and executioners--than an enraged parent or sibling who is thirsting for revenge. |
#42
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
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#43
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
There's been some good discussion in this thread, it's refreshing. On the other hand, there have been some personal attacks in this thread. That's not cool. Let's try and keep things on track here, as opposed to singling people out and making sarcastic comments about them.
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#44
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
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The US Federal Goverment has few major tasks to complete with roughly ~30% of mine and everyone elses salary. One of those tasks is to provide security for US citizens. You're right, we'll never be safe from terrorists; but that doesn't mean we should abandon strategies that could keep us safer. After the 9/11 attacks America did institute some very obsessive policies on terrorism (the Patriot Act comes to mind.) Unfortunatly, if policy makers didn't act swiftly and harshly they probably wouldn't have been re-elected. With the TSA loosening restrictions I think we're stepping away from overbearing policies. Basicly, I'd rather see them do something to fight terrorism rather than nothing. Regardless of whether or not Iraq has WMD; because they did have WMD, they used WMD on 100,000 Iranians during the Iraq-Iran War (Source). It was a "good thing" to liberate the country from an oppresive dictator who also happened to use his WMD on his own citizens during the Kurdish Genocide (Source). Whether or not the Colaition of the Willing finds WMD seems to be a moot point with Saddam Hussein's track record. I'm not going to lie to you and say that there weren't less altrusitic reasons for freeing Iraq, they certainly have a lot of oil. There's also debatabley better things the military could be used for such as in Darfur. However, wherever the United States military does go they are doing their work for peace for the United States, other countries, and the citizens of the invaded countries. It's disheareting to hear much of the critissim over the Iraq war coming from the French. We all know what the US military did for the citizens of France during World War 2. I do have a problem with this line... Quote:
I am rambling now, so I'm going to stop and return to the subject of the thread... Quote:
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I found a really great article on Wikipedia about capital punishment and have brought some new ideas for the death penalty:
Last edited by MikeDubreuil : 12-15-2005 at 12:01 PM. Reason: pronoun usage |
#45
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Re: Stanley 'Tookie' Williams
I don't know too much about this guy but I see the situation something like this: It is kind of like purposely denting someone's car and handing them a can of Bondo. Yes it is an attempt to "make it right" but it'll never be as good as it once was. No amount of children's books or "don't join gangs" campaigning will bring back those 4 people's lives he took.
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