2006 Official Game Hint Discussion

[Dan Richardson]

Originally Posted by AmyPrib

In reading some info on the state Montana, here was an excerpt:
"...and the dry farming was very successful with the comparatively new and valuable crops of durum, or macaroni wheat, and Russian barley, which is used in straw for winter feed to sheep and neat cattle."

Macaroni = pasta... Maybe instead of corn on the field, it's wheat, or hay, or possible a mess of pvc batons (like said many times). Heh, who wouldn't love to have wheat all gnurled up in their drivetrain.

I don't think they will be pool noodles. Those tear apart very easily, can you imagine robot claws digging into those things?

Also, Montana's green heights. Joe Montana and Trent Green both quarterbacks, yeah? Both had some great successes and "heights".

Montana, as stated has a lot of varied terrains and physical elevations. I definitely think there will be a vertical aspect to this game, but, in what way who knows.

Minerals and Mining have been the lead industry in Montana since the 1800's. Lumber, forests, logging shovels... a game piece obsessed with the shovel's show... maybe...some animal in the forest who doesn't want the logger to tear down the lumber... lol.. I don't know where to go with that yet.

Just a few incoherent thoughts as of now.

And yes Freddy204, this hint came directly from the FIRST personnel.

hehe I sure hope no hay or wheat.. heh I won't be able to attend competition hehe and many other people like me with alergies and such :-)

[Jon Jack]

"five 'bots tangling with pasta"
5v5

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show"
Here's something you guys haven't thought about: Cloudesley Shovell

I know the spelling isn't exact, but 'Shovel's Show' might be refering to the incident where Shovell crashed his fleet in home port: "The disaster of the fleet wrecking itself in home waters brought great consternation to the nation. Clearly, something better than dead reckoning was needed to navigate in dangerous waters. This led to the Longitude Act which offered a very large prize for anyone who could find a method of determining longitude accurately at sea. After many years the consequence of the prize was that accurate clocks were produced which became used throughout the world for navigation at sea." - wikipedia.org

I don't think this means that the game will a water game, but it might have something to do with: direction, dead reckoning or maybe even a playing field that has more that one height differention, just a thought...

"and seeing Montana's green heights"
I have a feeling that the Joe Montana hint maybe be going in the right direction, last year's hint had something related to professional sports. Also Montana is home to the Buffaloberry shrub which can reach as tall as 812 feet, just a fact...

Also lets not forget about another hint: "The fox is in the hen house"...

[artdutra04]

Okay, after letting the hint digest for a few hours free of ChiefDelphi, I've come up with some ideas. But I reserve my right to revise these guestimates if need arises.

But before we get too far into really wild guesses, let's try to keep in mind a few things. We need a set of paramaters to think within before we come to deciphering the official clue.

1. Nothing can extend under the main plane of the playing field. This has to be the case because FIRST is not going to cut holes under the field to account for a subsurface feature. And raising the entire field is not cheap, nor is it probable. The odds are a 95% chance against something penetrating beneath the main plane of the playing field.

2. The main playing field components have to be readily available. Simple as that.

3. The playing field has to be something that does not intentionally cause physical entanglement with robots. How much of a nightmare would it be for field reseters if half of the robots at the end of each match were stuck in coils of rope? I give this a 90% against rope or other physical entanglements.

4. The playing field components have to something that can be easily mocked up by teams of parts from Home Depot.

5. Everything else that has to be considered, including regional logisitics, field reset, etc.


Alright, now to the clue part.

five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights

The "five 'bots" does not actually refer to exactly five robots. There will most likely not be five robots. However, there is a significant chance that there will be six robots. The five can be refering to the fact that only five of the six robots can be doing a task at once.

Other ideas, like a 2x2x1 or a 3x2 match seem very unlikely to happen. Having a team forcefully choose to defect or having one robot randomly disable itself during the match seems unlikely. FIRST always seems to try to "even the playing field" and ensure that each team is "equal before the law"; eg. each team has equal amounts of time to build their robot, as well as compete. And the idea of a "random disablement" must send shivers down the spines of the referees. And they thought too many teams complained now?

The "shovel's show" does not directly refer to scooping up sand, but to the process of what a shovel does. A shovel attempts to gather up raw materials from a large area, and deposit it into a dump truck, train car, barge, etc. or some other container. Therefore, for the game object to be obsessed with the "shovel's show", the game object must be scattered about the field. The duty of the robot is to gather all the objects and deposit them into the "dump trucks", aka goals.

The "green" most definitely refers again to the vision camera. But what about Montana? Montaña is the Spanish word for mountain (which is why the state was named so). A mountain implies that there is an incline, which leads us to think that there is a ramp in the center of the field (a la 2003 style). But looking further into Montana reveals Butte as one of the major cities in that state. If I am not mistaken, a "butte" is a tall mountain with a flat top to it and steep sides.

But here is where we tie the first hint back in. There is most likely going to be 3x3 alliances this year. (There is some probability of 2x2x2, but I seem to doubt FIRST would introduce a third alliance). The "five 'bots" can refer to the fact that only five robots can fit onto the ramp/goal/platform at any one time. Or, this can be refering to the fact that the ramp is not two sided, but many sided. Can the ramp be a pentagon, with opportunities for only five of the fix robots to score at once?

The "tangling with pasta" can be refering not to actual pasta, but to a form of entanglement. If you stretch the definition of entanglement, we can get 'being hung up' in a task, or being 'busy' trying to accomplish something. This implies that the robots will have to venture up the ramp to satify an actual task or goal. This task can be hanging or scoring balls into a goal.

I am leaning toward some sort of balls in this year's game. Especially footballs - as they are still considered a ball, even though they are not a "ball" in traditional form. Plus, footballs are long, almost what one might call "baton-like". (I think that there is some element of truth to the baton hypothesis', but I really find it hard to believe that there will actually be batons as the playing field objects.)

Looking further into Montana gives us the state nickname of "Big Sky Country". This can mean that the main goal is very tall, and we have to "reach for the sky". Can the name of the game involve "Sky High" somehow?

And wait, didn't IFI just release their plans for the production of traction wheels? And I wonder why they chose to make a Vex robot to pick up footballs? Why footballs? Why traction wheels? Does this imply a strond, brute-like game, that battles for control of a center goal? Will this finally be the year of "Grid Iron Frenzy"? After all, this leads back to the Joe Montana hint...

[Ian Curtis]

I suggest we all just stop speculating, read Arthur's post and wait for the GDC to completely redesign the game and release another hint becuase they met their match in twisted hint logic.

[Jon Jack]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

I suggest we all just stop speculating, read Arthur's post and wait for the GDC to completely redesign the game and release another hint becuase they met their match in twisted hint logic.

I agree, Arthur's post does make sense... Just wait two more weeks.

During the year I can't wait for the game hint to be released, but then as soon as it is released and I read it for the first time my head starts to hurt and I regret reading it at all...

[663.keith]

Originally Posted by Pat Roche

Sorry didnt have time to go through all the posts this might be a repeat. The last two lines look like they belong together making this a riddle(obviously).

five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show and seeing Montana's green heights

I agree that the last two lines refer to the game piece together. To me, it sounds like the games pieces themselves are obsessed with watching shovels do their work and seeing Montana's high places.

"five 'bots tangling..." I think this could possibly refer to something where only 5 (of 6?) can do a certain thing, while a 6th stays on a pad, or does something else.

On the pasta theory. Pasta changes from hard to soft and squishy when it gets cooked. Maybe a game piece that changes once it is scored?

just my $.02

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by 663.keith

On the pasta theory. Pasta changes from hard to soft and squishy when it gets cooked. Maybe a game piece that changes once it is scored?

THAT would definitely be interesting, but once it's scored, changing probably won't do a whole lot...maybe it changes after autonomous?

[gabrielse]

What does a shovel have to show? A hole.

Will this year's game involve negative obstacles?

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by gabrielse

What does a shovel have to show? A hole.

Will this year's game involve negative obstacles?

See artdutra04's #1 above. Unlikely, but not entirely out of the question. Maybe some sort of volcanoe shape...though montana's not known for it's volcanoes..

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

I suggest we all just stop speculating, read Arthur's post and wait for the GDC to completely redesign the game and release another hint becuase they met their match in twisted hint logic.

I don't think tying the phrases together is what you should be doing, look at last years clue:

Originally Posted by 2005 FIRST Game Design Committee
While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns the following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me."

Each phrase gave a separate clue or two, and were not combined.
Amethyst = game piece shape
Baseball players = Game Name
"See" = Vision camera
Numbers clue = Alliance size

Now, separate the phrases from this years clue:
five 'bots tangling with pasta
This sounds like a game name to me. Possibly reflecting that this years field will be 5-sided? (Hey, everyone says "think outside the box", so why should we always, by default, play in one?) Anybody want to play Quint Sprint?

a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
I believe this is the logging shovel, and that we will be playing with long rod shaped objects (PVC?).

and seeing Montana's green heights
seeing refers to the use of the cameras. If you don't want FIRST to keep using them, then get proficient at programming them. They still represent a challenge to teams, and that's what this whole program is about -- challenges. (And yes, green will still be the color the robots will be seeking.)

Montana, aside from the previous information is a "lopsided" state. That is, it is flat and prarie in the eastern part of the state, but rises to high mountainous regions in the west. This reference could indicate that the playing field will be higher at one end than the other.

[Alex Burman]

what was the highest Joe Montana threw? maybe thats a hint as to how high a potential hill may be or hanging again

or i was thinking since the field goal is 10 feet high http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_go...oal_Dimensions
we could be hanging again or the ramp could go up to that height presenting a greater challenge from 7 feet in first frenzy

[Nuttyman54]

Another interesting fact I hit on from this website

"Known to many as "The Comeback Kid," Joe engineered 31 fourth quarter comebacks in his magnificent NFL career. The following is a list of games in which Joe brought the 49ers (26 times) and the Chiefs (5 times) back from fourth quarter deficits to dramatic wins:"

I know there's been talk here about moving the autonomous period, possibly to the end....anyone else think think is valid?


also a side note...one of his more famous games at Notre Dame was agianst Georgia Tech...in Atlanta, GA

[JamesBrown]

I haven't seen any other mention of this, I would like to tie the official hint in with the old talk about snow.

First the shovel's show, for the next few months everyt one up north will get plenty of chances to see their shovels and shovel snow (not dirt and not digging holes)

Then montana, while I agree that Joe Montana may be a connection I found this

"Statewide, average annual rainfall is near 20 inches, while rainfall in the higher elevations of the Rockies (especially north) exceeds 80 inches, and snowfall is usually heavy."

Mostly the snowfall at high elevations. I must say many things are pointing towards snow (also you could include pasta-> Italy-> winter olympics-> snow)

Before you all say how impractical snow is because of temperatures you should see that there is more than one definition of snow

The white specks on a television screen resulting from weak reception.

v. tr.
Slang. To overwhelm with insincere talk, especially with flattery.

Phrasal Verb:
snow under
To overwhelm: I was snowed under with work.
To defeat by a very large margin.

To cover, shut off, or close off

those are from dictionary.com I eliminated ones I did not see as pertinent, I believe that either bad reception or to shut off/ close off may be the most pertinent


also games object-> snow-> snowball->balls was a chain of thought that occurred to me.

[663.keith]

^ Or maybe it will be snowing pasta!

Originally Posted by Bill Moore

I don't think tying the phrases together is what you should be doing, look at last years clue:

"While wearing Amethyst colored glasses, John Neun gave George Burns the following riddle: "Look closely and you will see something between Pi, You and Me."

Each phrase gave a separate clue or two, and were not combined.
Amethyst = game piece shape
Baseball players = Game Name
"See" = Vision camera
Numbers clue = Alliance size

But the whole John Neun and George Burns, fit together with the Pi clue to give the hint about the number of teams per alliance. I feel that the clue is vague enough to have many interpretations varying from very broad to very specific. During the discussion about the clue last year, many people properly hypothesized the tetrahedral theme through the whole last part of the clue.

heh, but I'm probably totally wrong anyway so....

I have mixed feelings about an autonomous mode at the end of the time, it would prove difficult to maneuver your robot into the proper place at the time the autonomous period started. I know my team has had some troubles placing our robot without a remote at the beginning of the match. Imagine teams trying to drive their robot to a specific position with the distraction of 3 other robots .

It could be possible that autonomous mode would be something radically different where exact positioning of the robot would not be necessary. How to accomplish this though, I don't really know.

[phrontist]

Originally Posted by Bill Moore

If you don't want FIRST to keep using them, then get proficient at programming them. They still represent a challenge to teams, and that's what this whole program is about -- challenges.

They are challenging for the wrong reasons. The difficult thing about the CMU cam has been done for you, recognizing color blobs and tracking them. Algorithmically speaking, homing in on an object given one's current orientation to it isn't terribly difficult. The reason you didn't see every other team capping in auto was because they had tons and tons of issues, and there was little point incentive to spend a lot of time, very little of which would have been real computer-science algorithmic thinking, on implementing a system.

I hope we don't see the CMU cam again, but it looks to be inevitable.