Picking Teams in Elimination Rounds

[Joe_Widen]

I love that FIRST changed the selection system. It makes for a more dynamic and fun game, especially the elimination rounds. Who wants to see your robot get their butt handed to them? Well anyways i think that FIRST made a good call. O yeh it gives everyone a chance, not just Hammond Wildstang HOT Bot and Cheesy Poofs.

[Ian Curtis]

At BAE it was the 5th seed versus the 7th: in the finals, with the 5th coming away with the win. At BAE I was rather amused when 1276 got picked after we had already picked an alliance partner. Also, at BAE the 9th and 10th seeds picked, so be sure to have a list if you are in the top 12. Without one, you'll never amount to any sort of alliance. And put make sure you have a strategy when you make your list. We knew we wanted robots capable of certain things, and we picked robots capable of achieving those ends.

As I'm sure Grady, JVN, Karthik, Brian Beatty and other strategy greats of our FIRST world can tell you, SCOUTING IS IMPORTANT!

[mrmummert]

hello folks...at vcu it did help us i guess...which as it worked out evened out what happened to us. we were supposed to be ranked 7-1-0 and were ranked 6-2-0...a scoring mistake...but nothing we could do anything about unless we raised a lot of mess about it...so we took the mistake...
We ended up ranked 7th..then 6th after the alliance selection started.

This is where it helped us. Last year at Atlanta..we were ranked 19th in our division...so we thought we would have been picked for an alliance...but ened up being alternates and never played....no telling what might have happened if the alliance changes would have done for us if we had this last year...

[The Lucas]

One thing that stood out to me at NJ was:

No teams picked among the top 8 seeds!

This totally surprised me as this was very common last year. It seemed to me that it would have been advantageous for some of the top 8 to pick each other.

At first I thought that the new serpentine draft style prohibited it, but after rereading my rule book I knew that this wasn't the case. So why didn't they the top 8 select each other? Not that I am complaining about the results, because all the alliances were great (I don’t think there was a single bad pick). I am just curious.

As for the Serpentine Draft, there were not as many upsets as I predicted last year . I only counted one upset (#6: 223 522 75 over #3: 56 303 528) and that was really close (3 matches). Of course that is only one regional and no one was going to beat 25, they were just that good .

I am wondering how this will impact Pittsburgh, which has just 25 teams. The #1 alliance is going to have 2 robots to choose between 2nd pick. The choice may become easier if one of the robots is broken.

[akshar]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

I am wondering how this will impact Pittsburgh, which has just 25 teams. The #1 alliance is going to have 2 robots to choose between 2nd pick. The choice may become easier if one of the robots is broken.

imagine if more than two robots are broken, the first alliance would get stuck with a broken robot on their alliance, and since Alliance Seed 8 is against Seed 1 in the begining of elimination the top team will be at a huge disadvantage

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

One thing that stood out to me at NJ was:

No teams picked among the top 8 seeds!

This totally surprised me as this was very common last year. It seemed to me that it would have been advantageous for some of the top 8 to pick each other.

At first I thought that the new serpentine draft style prohibited it, but after rereading my rule book I knew that this wasn't the case. So why didn't they the top 8 select each other? Not that I am complaining about the results, because all the alliances were great (I don’t think there was a single bad pick). I am just curious.

As for the Serpentine Draft, there were not as many upsets as I predicted last year . I only counted one upset (#6: 223 522 75 over #3: 56 303 528) and that was really close (3 matches). Of course that is only one regional and no one was going to beat 25, they were just that good .

I am wondering how this will impact Pittsburgh, which has just 25 teams. The #1 alliance is going to have 2 robots to choose between 2nd pick. The choice may become easier if one of the robots is broken.

Exactly.
At smaller regionals the number 1 seed will be forced to work with a possibly "weak sister" and may be in a position to work twice as hard just to survive.
This was a huge swing and a miss on FIRST's behalf.

[Michael Corsetto]

Just a couple of things that went on during the alliance selection at the PNW Regional. The first surprising thing that happened was the Cheesy Poofs graciously declining the #2 alliances invitation to join them and instead picked there own alliance partners (which was a good choice, considering they won the regional). The other thing that was pretty cool was the #8 alliance (our alliance) made it all the way to the finals without loosing a match (there was one tie) before loosing 2 games to 1 to the Poofs.

I think the reverse picking order definetly helps even out the teams and gives everyone a shot at the championship.

Mike C.

[StephLee]

This is definitely an interesting twist to the game this year, and I can't wait to see how it plays out next weekend. Last year, we didn't think we'd get picked at all at Chesapeake; we were doing well, and then our last QF match brought us down about 20 spots to number 29. We wound up on the 7th ranked alliance; we were ecstatic. I've been thinking about how that would have been different if they had done this last year.

[Marc P.]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Exactly.
At smaller regionals the number 1 seed will be forced to work with a possibly "weak sister" and may be in a position to work twice as hard just to survive.
This was a huge swing and a miss on FIRST's behalf.

While I can certainly see the disadvantage at smaller regionals, I don't necessarily think of it as a swing and a miss. Traditionally, the first seed had the pick of the litter, and in most cases put together a very strong alliance (assuming they did proper scouting). The 8th seed was only able to pick from the leftovers from the top 7 for both rounds of the draft. The end result was typically stacked in the 1st seed's favor, when you put the theoretical best alliance against some lower ranked teams. As far as I know, there's only been a handful of 8th seed upsets when pitted against the 1st seed alliance.

Under the new system, there is the very real possibility of a tough match between the 1st and 8th seed alliances. I'd argue an alliance of two strong robots with a relatively weak partner would have approximately the same effectiveness as 3 middle of the road robots. With a balance of power like that, the elimination matches are no longer a stacked alliance vs. a weak alliance, and for all intents and purposes no longer a sure win.

It also greatly increases the burden on scouts, who now need to come up with a list of 24 potential alliance partners (for a 1st seed team), rather than 8 or 9. Strategically, it's brilliant. Statistically, it's a nightmare. In the end, it led to some of the most exciting elimination matches I've ever seen in FIRST. I had the opportunity to see team 25's scouting team in action in New Jersey this year, and all I can say is wow. They know their stuff, and know what needs to be done. This year, more than ever, if you are a top 8 team, make sure you have all the scouting data necessary to make confident alliance choices, because in the end, it will make or break your shot at the gold.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Marc P.

While I can certainly see the disadvantage at smaller regionals, I don't necessarily think of it as a swing and a miss. Traditionally, the first seed had the pick of the litter, and in most cases put together a very strong alliance (assuming they did proper scouting). The 8th seed was only able to pick from the leftovers from the top 7 for both rounds of the draft. The end result was typically stacked in the 1st seed's favor, when you put the theoretical best alliance against some lower ranked teams. As far as I know, there's only been a handful of 8th seed upsets when pitted against the 1st seed alliance.

Under the new system, there is the very real possibility of a tough match between the 1st and 8th seed alliances. I'd argue an alliance of two strong robots with a relatively weak partner would have approximately the same effectiveness as 3 middle of the road robots. With a balance of power like that, the elimination matches are no longer a stacked alliance vs. a weak alliance, and for all intents and purposes no longer a sure win.

It also greatly increases the burden on scouts, who now need to come up with a list of 24 potential alliance partners (for a 1st seed team), rather than 8 or 9. Strategically, it's brilliant. Statistically, it's a nightmare. In the end, it led to some of the most exciting elimination matches I've ever seen in FIRST. I had the opportunity to see team 25's scouting team in action in New Jersey this year, and all I can say is wow. They know their stuff, and know what needs to be done. This year, more than ever, if you are a top 8 team, make sure you have all the scouting data necessary to make confident alliance choices, because in the end, it will make or break your shot at the gold.

At Pittburgh if you are the #1 seed you get the choice of two teams for your last partner. I doubt a steal will be waiting them at the bottom of the draft.
Do not be surprised if you see the #1 allaince go down in the first round at Pittsbugh

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

At Pittburgh if you are the #1 seed you get the choice of two teams for your last partner. I doubt a steal will be waiting them at the bottom of the draft.
Do not be surprised if you see the #1 allaince go down in the first round at Pittsbugh

This is nearly the same for Boilermaker. We will only have 5 teams that don't make it into the Finals, which I really really hate.. (darn the regional scheduling! ) But that also means that nobody can pack up early because they need to wait around and find out if they are needed as a 4th pick in finals.... sure hope only a few teams need a 4th pick... I wonder what Pittsburgh will do if several teams need a 4th partner? I asked this question but have not received an answer yet... my guess is they're just outta luck.

I think in the grand scheme of things, it balances alliances out a bit, but for a few small regionals it might make it slightly less ideal to be 1st seed. Depends if you want your first strong pick, or 2 moderate picks (from your own list)... It's not the fault of anyone, it's just the way it is.

It also greatly increases the burden on scouts, who now need to come up with a list of 24 potential alliance partners (for a 1st seed team), rather than 8 or 9.

I am surprised some teams limit their picking list to 8-9 as those 8-9 can easily be picked before you get a chance, at least for your 2nd pick. It also helps to have a longer list in case you need to collaborate with your alliance partners on who you both want to pick and agree upon.

[Lil' Lavery]

Here's my issues with the new drafting system:
A)Doesn't the #1 deserve good picks?
Yes, your ranking has a ton to do with your schedule, but I have yet to see a #1 or #2 seed that didn't deserve to be on top. From what I hear, 25 was more or less hands down the best team in NJ. 1731 had an AMAZING bot, set the high score at the regional with 99, could play offense and defense etc.
The #1 seed worked for their spot, do they not deserve the fruits of their labor?

B)The #1 was not, and never will be, a guarantee to even survive the QF round. 447 toppled 3 #1 alliances last year as the #8 seed. I have seen countless times, where even if the #1 seed survives, they have been brutally close, gone to 3 matches, etc etc etc

C)The shallow regional depth
There are 5 Regionals (Pitt, Finger Lakes, Waterloo, Boilermaker, and Israel) with 30 or less teams. That leaves a VERY narrow pool of teams, some of which may be out of comission, for the #1 and #2 alliances to make their 2nd pick from. Numerous other regionals have between 31-34 teams.

D)Championship Depth
At each regional competition, there are always a few teams that clearly are a level above the rest. There is typically enough of these teams for them to be spread amognst 3-5 alliances and have some exciting elimination matches. At Championship, each division typically has 10-20 of this level of teams. This means a few alliance each year have a full set of 3 of these teams. But now, it is quite possible for the #1 and #2 seeded alliances to only have 1 or 2 of this caliber of team, putting them at a distinct disadvantage, especially considering the defensive gameplay shown thusfar (where if you can shut down many alliance's biggest threat, and at least hamper their 2nd biggest offensive threat, you will typically win). I agree that this is a FAR lesser issue than the depth at the smaller regionals.


I speak from expieriencing the bottom half of alliances at both off-season and regional competitions. In 2004, 116 was in the #7 alliance, we beat the #2 seed in 3 matches, but would lose in the semi-finals. At "York Summer Frenzy" 116 was in the #3 (of 4) alliances, we beat the #2 seed once again, but would lose in the finals. At "Capital Clash" 116 was in the #5 alliance, we beat the #3 seed, but would lose in the semi-finals.

[Nawaid Ladak]

if there is a small regional like Pits. with 25 teams, who are the backups, if 2 robots break down.

the first team is so called the leder, therefore all for one and one for all. it's the leders responsiblity to tend to the weak, isn't it all about gracous professionalisiom. (ingnore the bad spelling)

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by FreedomForce

if there is a small regional like Pits. with 25 teams, who are the backups, if 2 robots break down.

the first team is so called the leder, therefore all for one and one for all. it's the leders responsiblity to tend to the weak, isn't it all about gracous professionalisiom. (ingnore the bad spelling)

I f the robot can't perform (as in it has very limited abilities, it's unrelaible, it's fragile or is just plain broken) they are stuck with it. They can try and fix it but even 71 wouldn't be able to fabricate a whole new robot in an hour. So they are virtually hobbled in my opinion.
Why would anyone want to be the #1 seed?

[Tim Delles]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I f the robot can't perform (as in it has very limited abilities, it's unrelaible, it's fragile or is just plain broken) they are stuck with it. They can try and fix it but even 71 wouldn't be able to fabricate a whole new robot in an hour. So they are virtually hobbled in my opinion.
Why would anyone want to be the #1 seed?

I wouldn't put it past them to be able to Ed. You do remember Nats in '04 where we had a Divisional Finalist was is that was made during practice day.