pic: more

[=Martin=Taylor=]

I saw these at Cal Games.

They were very impressive. I hear you are selling them.

Could you post some specs?
-what drives them
-how well do they turn
-where the belts come from.
-(and most importantly) what are those strange shaped holes in the sides?

[sam shawe]

It's true, these track drivetrain sets will be produced!
To answer your questions:
We will work with Andy Mark so that our track system mates directly to their
gearboxes or a team can use the kit gearbox.
Total drive train weight is 16-18 lbs. per side depending on the motors used.
Tracks are made by Breco-Flex, we will have them in stock with no lead-time, also in talking with Breco Flex the
tracks can be re-treaded.
When properly designed a tracked robot will spin on it's footprint !
This track system mates directly to the gearboxes eliminating all extra chains
belts etc. to remove from the robot remove 3 bolts and unplug motor wires.
These tracks are steel belted and do not stretch eliminating any need for
adjustment adding reliability to design .
The three uniquely shaped columns add structural rigidity to system.

Sam Shawe

[FierceRabbit]

The best track system in all of FIRST in my opinion. I have seen this system run over/push/pull some of the most experienced of teams with a very good drivetrains.






fierceRabbit

[Gboehm]

So they also work with the Kit Chassis I presume?

[Gdeaver]

OK,
So what year are we going to make the official transition from design and fabricating our robots to design spec and outsourcing the robot? It's going down that path so why don't we just make it official. Say 2008 we just get a kit of catalogs and go shopping.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

OK,
So what year are we going to make the official transition from design and fabricating our robots to design spec and outsourcing the robot? It's going down that path so why don't we just make it official. Say 2008 we just get a kit of catalogs and go shopping.

My estimated guess: Never.

Consider that most of the FIRST-targeted COTS parts are designed for drivetrain applications. (Sure, you could use an AM traction wheel for your shooter this year, but you catch my drift.) So you've now got an uber-pimped drive setup--but barring another year like 2002 or 2003, you're going to need a lot more than that to get to Einstein.

In Kitbot-era FRC, we've seen two games that emphasize scoring as the key to victory, something an unimproved drivetrain won't be able to accomplish particularly well. (Did any score-in-the-base-of-the-goal robots make it to the elimination rounds in 2005? Did any plain boxes on wheels do significanly well this year?) Unless Dave's got something up his sleeves for 2007, the next game's going to require yet another manipulator to win the game. Until AndyMark and IFI start slugging it out in the two-joint arm department, I'm not worried about this becoming a real problem.

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by sam shawe

It's true, these track drivetrain sets will be produced!
To answer your questions:
We will work with Andy Mark so that our track system mates directly to their
gearboxes or a team can use the kit gearbox.
Total drive train weight is 16-18 lbs. per side depending on the motors used.
Tracks are made by Breco-Flex, we will have them in stock with no lead-time, also in talking with Breco Flex the
tracks can be re-treaded.
When properly designed a tracked robot will spin on it's footprint !
This track system mates directly to the gearboxes eliminating all extra chains
belts etc. to remove from the robot remove 3 bolts and unplug motor wires.
These tracks are steel belted and do not stretch eliminating any need for
adjustment adding reliability to design .
The three uniquely shaped columns add structural rigidity to system.

Sam Shawe

I would just like to point out something which you hopefully already know. There are regulations regarding selling things to FIRST teams, specifically regarding the production amounts required. To make these things legal for FIRST teams every team has to be guaranteed the availability, IE. for this upcoming season you would have to stock a set for at least as many teams competing this year or be able to make them on a per-order basis, with out the possiblity of backorder.

I am sure you are aware of this, but I am unsure if the demand will be worth the investment. That being said I never like to discourage anyone. The advise I would give is to give a call to FIRST as they can probably direct you better, in addition speaking with Andy Baker, would do you well. Good Luck.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

for this upcoming season you would have to stock a set for at least as many teams competing this year or be able to make them on a per-order basis, with out the possiblity of backorder.

This is not true. Per the 2006 manual, under the definition of "VENDOR"--

The VENDOR must be normally able to ship any general (i.e., non-FIRST unique) product within five
business days of receiving a valid purchase request. It is recognized that certain unusual circumstances,
such as 1,000 FIRST teams all ordering the same part at once from the same VENDOR, may cause
atypical delays in shipping due to backorders for even the largest VENDORS. Such delays due to higherthan-
normal order rates are excused.

He only needs to be able to ship one to any team that wants one within 5 days. In theory he need not have a single set in stock at any time. Only the capability to manufacture them in a 5 day cycle.

[FierceRabbit]

statement withdrawn. soz.



fiercerabbit

[Madison]

Originally Posted by FierceRabbit

Say a rural (new) team with a $8,000 6 week material budget has the opportunity buy this system. This would give them a huge advantage on the playing field. Not only could they focus more on designing a device for the "Game", but they would be a competitor with the veteran teams. For once the teams that have $200,000 dollar spending budgets and unlimited resources may not have everything going for them anymore. The level of competition may be set higher...is this a bad thing? You scared?

You people complain about following the rules, and doing what FIRST says. Call FIRST and ask them, I would bet they would be all for these systems. The bottom line is that a pre-built system like this will create more opportunities for smaller low-budget teams, but also create more exciting game play. Get over it. If you have a problem with a pre-built system, dont buy them, design your own, just hope that the team that purchases a gearbox or a track system doesnt run your robot into the wall.



fiercerabbit

If y'all have the mechanisms in place to genuinely begin the production and sale of these systems in accordance with the rules set forth by FIRST for consideration as a vendor, you may want to look at other folks serving the same market and learn a thing or two about how to behave.

[Gboehm]

Originally Posted by FierceRabbit

Say a rural (new) team with a $8,000 6 week material budget has the opportunity buy this system. This would give them a huge advantage on the playing field. Not only could they focus more on designing a device for the "Game", but they would be a competitor with the veteran teams. For once the teams that have $200,000 dollar spending budgets and unlimited resources may not have everything going for them anymore. The level of competition may be set higher...is this a bad thing? You scared?

You people B!tch and complain about following the rules, and doing what FIRST says. Call FIRST and ask them, I would bet they would be all for these systems. The bottom line is that a pre-built system like this will create more opportunities for smaller low-budget teams, but also create more exciting game play. Get over it. If you have a problem with a pre-built system, dont buy them, design your own, just hope that the team that purchases a gearbox or a track system doesnt run your robot into the wall.



fiercerabbit

As harsh a your statement might be, I agree fully. I am on a low budget team that is planning on making some leaps forward in manufacturing our own parts. Unfortunetly sponsers might be more likely to give money to a successful program. I know If I were a sponser, I would want to give my money to a team likely to get results. Many teams like the one I am on, might purchase some of these premanufactured parts until we get the infrastucture to design our own. I am on team 1516, we get a majority of our money from ROP, if we got some better results, they would be more likely to fund our program. Hopefully someday we will be able to get a CNC Machine, until then we will do what we can.

Greg

[Gdeaver]

My post was meant to have a sarcastic tone to it but, this issue is going to become more prevalent in the future. Maybe it started with a transmission, then some wheels and now a entire drive train assembly. What will be next? If left unchecked the very nature of the competition will change. Will this be a good thing for the program? There will always be a few that will push the rules as far as possible until they get smacked down. Then First will come under fire for their heavy handedness. The above post shows the lawyer mentality and then there are the bean counters that can use creative accounting to show that a 5000$ part actually cost 300 dollars. This will get out of control if teams start emphasizing winning over the process and the core goals. This thread and some others should be a wake up call for First that there are going to be issues down the road and they need to be addressed now before things spiral out of control.

[Gboehm]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

My post was meant to have a sarcastic tone to it but, this issue is going to become more prevalent in the future. Maybe it started with a transmission, then some wheels and now a entire drive train assembly. What will be next? If left unchecked the very nature of the competition will change. Will this be a good thing for the program? There will always be a few that will push the rules as far as possible until they get smacked down. Then First will come under fire for their heavy handedness. The above post shows the lawyer mentality and then there are the bean counters that can use creative accounting to show that a 5000$ part actually cost 300 dollars. This will get out of control if teams start emphasizing winning over the process and the core goals. This thread and some others should be a wake up call for First that there are going to be issues down the road and they need to be addressed now before things spiral out of control.

Well I am an avid auto racing fan, and the Series I absolutely love had to deal with something very similar to this. In the mid 90's the CART series had everything going for it, it had several engine makers, and a few different chassis makers... Unfortunetly you had Honda and Toyota that were willing to win no matter how much the cost was, it eventually got to the point to where Toyota was Spending over $200 Million to win the Championship. It got so bad to the point to where both engine makers left and took many of the teams with them. Many of the teams were subsidised by the engine makers when Honda and Toyota left CART things looked very grim. Many teams went to the IRL, other teams closed shop. After CART declared Bankruptancy they were bought out and the Series was able to continue under the Banner of Champ Car. Champ Car has a very simple method of cost control now. They have one Chassis and one engine maker, making it a spec series... I can understand if many teams are fed up with how FIRST is, I personally love the competition and love engineering things, but FIRST better be careful because they could potentially see teams starting to fold because they feel they will never be able to be on a level playing field with the top teams... I hope FIRST is around for years to come, but many teams might not be able to stay involved with the program.

[Gabe]

The way I see it, selling robot parts is a good thing. To keep up with products from AndyMark and IFI, veteran teams will be forced to come up with new and ingenious ideas that will take them to nationals.

I'll be honest in saying that the reason that I don't want this treaded drive train to be sold is because I am downright terrified of its performance on the field, having seen how difficult it is to compete against them (Think of 753 in the PNW regional). So of course I have already been thinking of new drive train ideas that will give us an advantage if our robot ever encounters this drive train on the field.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by sam shawe

It's true, these track drivetrain sets will be produced!
To answer your questions:
We will work with Andy Mark so that our track system mates directly to their
gearboxes or a team can use the kit gearbox.
Total drive train weight is 16-18 lbs. per side depending on the motors used.
Tracks are made by Breco-Flex, we will have them in stock with no lead-time, also in talking with Breco Flex the
tracks can be re-treaded.
When properly designed a tracked robot will spin on it's footprint !
This track system mates directly to the gearboxes eliminating all extra chains
belts etc. to remove from the robot remove 3 bolts and unplug motor wires.
These tracks are steel belted and do not stretch eliminating any need for
adjustment adding reliability to design .
The three uniquely shaped columns add structural rigidity to system.

Sam Shawe

These are a great set of tank tread tracks. This is an efficient design, especially since there is no need for a tension adjustment. It should be easily to link up any sort of motor/gearbox output to the input shaft of this design.

Sam at Outback Manufacturing in Oregon is looking to provide these as a resource to teams for the upcoming year. He and I have been communicating about this, as I have been sharing some of my experience regarding how many teams may be interested in his creation. Obviously, the demand may depend on the upcoming FIRST game.

I wish Outback Manufacturing the best of luck with accurately forecasting just enough (and a bit more) of these systems to fill the uncertain demand from FIRST teams. If teams want to see this effort happen, they should drop Sam and note and tell him if they are interested in this being sold.

This is another resource for teams to use if they don't have high end CNC milling capability or design resources to create a similar track system.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker