pic: more

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

for this upcoming season you would have to stock a set for at least as many teams competing this year or be able to make them on a per-order basis, with out the possiblity of backorder.

This is not true. Per the 2006 manual, under the definition of "VENDOR"--

The VENDOR must be normally able to ship any general (i.e., non-FIRST unique) product within five
business days of receiving a valid purchase request. It is recognized that certain unusual circumstances,
such as 1,000 FIRST teams all ordering the same part at once from the same VENDOR, may cause
atypical delays in shipping due to backorders for even the largest VENDORS. Such delays due to higherthan-
normal order rates are excused.

He only needs to be able to ship one to any team that wants one within 5 days. In theory he need not have a single set in stock at any time. Only the capability to manufacture them in a 5 day cycle.

[FierceRabbit]

statement withdrawn. soz.



fiercerabbit

[Madison]

Originally Posted by FierceRabbit

Say a rural (new) team with a $8,000 6 week material budget has the opportunity buy this system. This would give them a huge advantage on the playing field. Not only could they focus more on designing a device for the "Game", but they would be a competitor with the veteran teams. For once the teams that have $200,000 dollar spending budgets and unlimited resources may not have everything going for them anymore. The level of competition may be set higher...is this a bad thing? You scared?

You people complain about following the rules, and doing what FIRST says. Call FIRST and ask them, I would bet they would be all for these systems. The bottom line is that a pre-built system like this will create more opportunities for smaller low-budget teams, but also create more exciting game play. Get over it. If you have a problem with a pre-built system, dont buy them, design your own, just hope that the team that purchases a gearbox or a track system doesnt run your robot into the wall.



fiercerabbit

If y'all have the mechanisms in place to genuinely begin the production and sale of these systems in accordance with the rules set forth by FIRST for consideration as a vendor, you may want to look at other folks serving the same market and learn a thing or two about how to behave.

[Gboehm]

Originally Posted by FierceRabbit

Say a rural (new) team with a $8,000 6 week material budget has the opportunity buy this system. This would give them a huge advantage on the playing field. Not only could they focus more on designing a device for the "Game", but they would be a competitor with the veteran teams. For once the teams that have $200,000 dollar spending budgets and unlimited resources may not have everything going for them anymore. The level of competition may be set higher...is this a bad thing? You scared?

You people B!tch and complain about following the rules, and doing what FIRST says. Call FIRST and ask them, I would bet they would be all for these systems. The bottom line is that a pre-built system like this will create more opportunities for smaller low-budget teams, but also create more exciting game play. Get over it. If you have a problem with a pre-built system, dont buy them, design your own, just hope that the team that purchases a gearbox or a track system doesnt run your robot into the wall.



fiercerabbit

As harsh a your statement might be, I agree fully. I am on a low budget team that is planning on making some leaps forward in manufacturing our own parts. Unfortunetly sponsers might be more likely to give money to a successful program. I know If I were a sponser, I would want to give my money to a team likely to get results. Many teams like the one I am on, might purchase some of these premanufactured parts until we get the infrastucture to design our own. I am on team 1516, we get a majority of our money from ROP, if we got some better results, they would be more likely to fund our program. Hopefully someday we will be able to get a CNC Machine, until then we will do what we can.

Greg

[Gdeaver]

My post was meant to have a sarcastic tone to it but, this issue is going to become more prevalent in the future. Maybe it started with a transmission, then some wheels and now a entire drive train assembly. What will be next? If left unchecked the very nature of the competition will change. Will this be a good thing for the program? There will always be a few that will push the rules as far as possible until they get smacked down. Then First will come under fire for their heavy handedness. The above post shows the lawyer mentality and then there are the bean counters that can use creative accounting to show that a 5000$ part actually cost 300 dollars. This will get out of control if teams start emphasizing winning over the process and the core goals. This thread and some others should be a wake up call for First that there are going to be issues down the road and they need to be addressed now before things spiral out of control.

[Gboehm]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

My post was meant to have a sarcastic tone to it but, this issue is going to become more prevalent in the future. Maybe it started with a transmission, then some wheels and now a entire drive train assembly. What will be next? If left unchecked the very nature of the competition will change. Will this be a good thing for the program? There will always be a few that will push the rules as far as possible until they get smacked down. Then First will come under fire for their heavy handedness. The above post shows the lawyer mentality and then there are the bean counters that can use creative accounting to show that a 5000$ part actually cost 300 dollars. This will get out of control if teams start emphasizing winning over the process and the core goals. This thread and some others should be a wake up call for First that there are going to be issues down the road and they need to be addressed now before things spiral out of control.

Well I am an avid auto racing fan, and the Series I absolutely love had to deal with something very similar to this. In the mid 90's the CART series had everything going for it, it had several engine makers, and a few different chassis makers... Unfortunetly you had Honda and Toyota that were willing to win no matter how much the cost was, it eventually got to the point to where Toyota was Spending over $200 Million to win the Championship. It got so bad to the point to where both engine makers left and took many of the teams with them. Many of the teams were subsidised by the engine makers when Honda and Toyota left CART things looked very grim. Many teams went to the IRL, other teams closed shop. After CART declared Bankruptancy they were bought out and the Series was able to continue under the Banner of Champ Car. Champ Car has a very simple method of cost control now. They have one Chassis and one engine maker, making it a spec series... I can understand if many teams are fed up with how FIRST is, I personally love the competition and love engineering things, but FIRST better be careful because they could potentially see teams starting to fold because they feel they will never be able to be on a level playing field with the top teams... I hope FIRST is around for years to come, but many teams might not be able to stay involved with the program.

[Gabe]

The way I see it, selling robot parts is a good thing. To keep up with products from AndyMark and IFI, veteran teams will be forced to come up with new and ingenious ideas that will take them to nationals.

I'll be honest in saying that the reason that I don't want this treaded drive train to be sold is because I am downright terrified of its performance on the field, having seen how difficult it is to compete against them (Think of 753 in the PNW regional). So of course I have already been thinking of new drive train ideas that will give us an advantage if our robot ever encounters this drive train on the field.