pic: BAE Systems-Granite State Regional High Score

[skimoose]

We've all been in matches where our alliances have been crushed, or have dominated. That's part of the luck of the draw. Being on the receiving end a big lose has value, too. Did the drive team fall back to a backup plan or just choke? Did they give up or continue to drive in a calm and professional manner? As an athlete, I would always do my best regardless of how out-classed I was. I don't want my opponents easing up on me, because I won't reach my personal best.

This match was extremely clean and there was NOTHING unprofessional about it. If I was on the losing side of this match I wouldn't be offended, especially when it's the first match of the QF. Time to come up with a new game plan in a hurry! That's what seperates winners from losers. Adapt and overcome, or give up and go home. There is still victory in losing. I would have left this competition knowing that I was beaten by the winning alliance in a fair match. 501, 175, & 1824 obviously had a great alliance and a great game plan. It's obvious watching the match that they executed their game plan perfectly.

Congratulations to team 501, 175, & 1824 for winning the Granite State Regional!

Billfred pointed out correctly that the alliance would suffer penalties for trying to assist the losing alliance. There was a match at VCU this weekend that was LOST by the alliance dominating the rack scoring because they were hit with several penalties. This was also a Quarter-Final match, not a qualifying match, things are just a little different.

Eliminations are to win period.

As far as banning the 1-4 seeds from choosing each other, why?

Alliance selection is about picking teams and robots that will compliment your strengths and offset your weaknesses. I've seen many of these high seed alliances LOSE a competition because they simply chose the other high seeds, and not the teams that would work best with their own robots. It's no different than certain professional ball teams that spend ridiculous amounts of money to acquire the best players and still lose.

I've seen many high scoring robots low in the standings after the qualification matches, only because of poor alliance pairings and bad luck, and I've seen 1 and 2 seeds that were pulled to the top by their qualification alliances inspite of their own mediocre performance. I even recall a "no show" at a post season event, that nearly ended up as an eigth seed alliance captain because they weren't pulled from the match lists and the alliances they were supposed to be in ended up giving them a 4-2-0 record!

Moral of alliance selection... choose well grasshopper!

[DDAwg3]

Listen one and all....It was not my intention to get everyone's panties in a bunch AND I was not making a reference that any of those teams were not very good or effective....IT was very evident throughout the tournement that 175 and 501 were scoring machines and only increased their potency by picking their ramp team. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! Also I have no ill feelings or before or after any of these teams and have played with and agianst them in the past. I also want everyone to realize we did not get the oppurtunity of playing with or against any of these three teams and I have no sour feelings or don't think they are deserving champions of the GSR.

All I did and still stand by my initial (YES I SAID MY) view, not trying to throw sand in the eyes of the champion but for everyone to come up with all these reasons.

Listen they did have great scouting, plans, drivers, robots, etc. and with that said they were finely tuned enough to know they did nt need the points, the ratio for any tie breaker, etc.

Once and for all to kill the poor discussion ---- My bad for saying it apprehently but that it still one man's view and I have no ill feelings toward them. I apologize if I have OFFENDED any of you........

Regards,

Scott

[Justin]

Originally Posted by DDAwg3

Personally I found this match the exact opposite of what is suppose to be one of the biggest elements of FIRST -(Gracious professionalism) not with play like that......they had the match wrapped up and still went and put not just one but two robots up for the additional 60 points. I feel they should be ashamed not applauded. As amentor I would not of allowed that by my team.

I have always found this take on things within FIRST puzzling. It seems that within the last few years (probably post-2001) there is an increasing school of though that some how if a team plays the game to win they are just being bullies and it is not gracious professionalism.

I have to say I reject that. Dean likes to talk about "coopertition" but frankly FIRST is still a competition and that is what makes it fun, that is what makes FIRST work, that is what makes the business world that FIRST tries to hard to emulate work. Without it we are stuck with something as horrific as 2001.

Lastly, from a strategy point of view I can say that over the years I have seen lots of teams who have taken the approach of being gracious professionals on the playing field loose by taking some of their balls/whatever and giving them to the other team. On the playing field I think a team has every right to compete, play hard (within the rules), and play to win. As long as that team can go up and shake hands with the alliance after, that is what gracious professionalism is about. Perhaps the best example of my thinking on this is there are teams who will play quite hard on the field perhaps even damage a robot from the opposing alliance but the true test of gracious professionalism is when that same team goes over and helps the opposing team that they damaged fix their robots for the finals. That is how it is supposed to work. Sadly if we want to talk about "ungracious professionalism" this match was the least of what I saw in terms of ungracious professionalism.

Respectfully,

Justin

[hipsterjr]

Originally Posted by DDAwg3

Personally I found this match the exact opposite of what is suppose to be one of the biggest elements of FIRST -(Gracious professionalism) not with play like that......they had the match wrapped up and still went and put not just one but two robots up for the additional 60 points. I feel they should be ashamed not applauded. As amentor I would not of allowed that by my team.

How in the world do you doubt their GP for playing the game! People have been complaining all week about the low scores and now you are attacking them for an awesome match.

[dbell]

I was really impressed to see this round.
I think that scoring the extra 60 points was being GP. If I was a grandmother of a kid on 501, 175, or 1824 I would have been very proud

Getting the points for the ramp did not embarrass the other team any more (i don't think). The crowd got excited though. If they had gone to the other alliance after that round and bragged that would not be GP. But they didn't do that.

FIRST is about doing your best, and 175, 501, and 1824 did that. Great job guys!

[StephLee]

Originally Posted by Justin

As long as that team can go up and shake hands with the alliance after, that is what gracious professionalism is about. Perhaps the best example of my thinking on this is there are teams who will play quite hard on the field perhaps even damage a robot from the opposing alliance but the true test of gracious professionalism is when that same team goes over and helps the opposing team that they damaged fix their robots for the finals. That is how it is supposed to work.

I'd like to point out on Buzz's behalf: last year during the finals at Chesapeake, we were paired with them and one of our opponents suffered a big amount of damage to one of their gearboxes. They called their timeout to try and fix it, but when it didn't look like they'd have enough time, Buzz suggested we call ours to give them a shot. This is *after* our alliance narrowly lost the first match of the finals, so we were one match away from losing.

Not trying to make any real point, just bringing up a story that this thread reminded me of. It's the kind of thing that makes FIRST so much more than other competitions.

[whytheheckme]

Originally Posted by StephLee

I'd like to point out on Buzz's behalf: last year during the finals at Chesapeake, we were paired with them and one of our opponents suffered a big amount of damage to one of their gearboxes. They called their timeout to try and fix it, but when it didn't look like they'd have enough time, Buzz suggested we call ours to give them a shot. This is *after* our alliance narrowly lost the first match of the finals, so we were one match away from losing.

Not trying to make any real point, just bringing up a story that this thread reminded me of. It's the kind of thing that makes FIRST so much more than other competitions.

Yes, last year I was on 181, the loser of that set of 3 matches. Buzz was very, very Graciously Professional by giving up their time-out. I believe that Buzz is a very good team, both physically (their robot), and GPly. After the second match yesterday, their whole drive team came up to us (Myself and the rest of the drive team,) shook our hands and thanked us for playing. I am always really impressed by Buzz.

Jacob

[teenmisfit]

Originally Posted by DDAwg3

Respectfully I will have to disagree that when teams have a 256 point lead and twenty seconds to go in the match ......they did' nt need to drive up the ramp for the additional 60.

I was the driver and alliance captain (John Willis) for 501. The ramps were the best part (imho) of driving. It was the most challenge for me inside to line up and go. I had the chance and wanted to play the game since that is the whole purpose for our dedication to building a robot for 6 weeks. This is my opinion and im sad that it seems you think we were being unprofessional.

Ill admit i made one unprofessional mistake when i pushed a robot and then they caught the rack and tipped when i pulled away and were caught on them. That was my dumb dumb and i graciously appologized right after the match and offered any services to help fix them if they needed it.

Team 501's goal this year was to play the game. We did and buzz helped us put up the tubes for the 256pts and 1824 deserved there chance at scoring points. They spent 6 weeks to build a bot with not much help and they made it to finals. i was not going to let them down by not driving on there ramp.

As for the seed picking it does seem unfair. I can see that because in the 2 days of competition i was so scared that we wouldnt be the top 1 or 2 seed. Because on average those two pair up and win. and i did want to win like most teams. I do agree with that but from our standpoint picking buzz was the best move for the team as was picking 1824.

I'm sorry if we upset anyone because 501 would like to make a positive image for itself among first. It has greatly influenced my life and i will always help first as a mentor when i am older.

[Lil' Lavery]

The mere thought that scoring as many points as you can to win is ridiculous. It displays a flagrant disillusion about the values of FIRST, Gracious Professionalism, and competition.

A similar discussion arose for scoring for your opponents last season.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ghlight=points

I said it then as well:

The thought that opponents are scoring for you to "rub salt in your wounds" is looking at it the wrong way. It's not a matter of insulting pride, it's a matter of placement (for both you and them), and in truth, gracious professionalism. Consider for a moment the alternatives. If this thread doesn't exist about The Triplets scoring for the opponents, instead it would be a thread complaining about why the triplets beat them 300-10. "Why not simply stop at 100 and gather up all the balls so you can win decently, and have no chance at losing at all because you are denying us any points? Instead you went and tormented our loss even further by running the score up!"

Now this year, it's a penalty to score for the opponent. So, we have more lopsided scores. And what happened? Someone started complaining about that. Now I don't believe FIRST gave that penalty to discourage scoring for the opponent (but rather because of the limited quantity of game pieces).
Especially considering that this really actually could have become a close match very very fast. What if the opposing alliance had placed spoilers on the rack? They could have reduced that 256 row to a mere 16 points (2 rows of 3).

[skimoose]

Originally Posted by DDAwg3

All I did and still stand by my initial (YES I SAID MY) view, not trying to throw sand in the eyes of the champion but for everyone to come up with all these reasons....

Once and for all to kill the poor discussion ---- My bad for saying it apprehently but that it still one man's view and I have no ill feelings toward them. I apologize if I have OFFENDED any of you........

Regards,

Scott

Scott, I wasn't offended, nor did I see this as an affront to the winning alliance. However, I do see your views as hurting the FIRST program in general. FIRST is about inspiring students. Great matches inspire students.

Even when our team is on the losing side of a match, we get inspired by a great winning alliance. We try to take something positive out of the experience. Whether it's new mechanical systems that made a great robot, great driving skills, a unique strategy, or just a well executed plan. Is it fun to lose? NO, but we WANT to go back and work harder! "Wait 'til next year" isn't a bad thing, it's a door opening to unlimited possibilities.

FIRST has gone out of their way this year to try to bring parity to the competition through the rules. Some of these changes aren't for the better. Instead of inspiring teams to work harder and improve to compete with some of the "big boys", they've tried to limit the "big boys" so others feel like they have a chance with a mediocre design. Inspiration doesn't come from average performances or machines, but from the exceptional.

If teams are designing robots and playing the games within the rules, FIRST DOESN'T NEED NASCAR RESTRICTER PLATES!

May the best designs and best game play win. Game ON!

And, this is just my opinion. I don't expect everyone to agree with it either.

[skimoose]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Especially considering that this really actually could have become a close match very very fast. What if the opposing alliance had placed spoilers on the rack? They could have reduced that 256 row to a mere 16 points (2 rows of 3).

Woot!!

Now that's what I'm talking about. How to turn a negative into a positive!

Thank You.

[whytheheckme]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Especially considering that this really actually could have become a close match very very fast. What if the opposing alliance had placed spoilers on the rack? They could have reduced that 256 row to a mere 16 points (2 rows of 3).

Right! Had 1721's manipulator not have been damaged, this would have happened! We had the spoilers on the field and everything. It was just an unfortunate series of events for us, all of which were fair and square.

Jacob

[T3_1565]

I agree with what is mostly said already. I am also an athlete. In any other sport, it is part of the game to get in peoples heads, taunting them, doing ridiculious things, etc. etc. but this is why FIRST is different. I would see it as taunting us if they sat there and did nothing for the last 45 secs of the round, or if they spun around in circles wasting time. What do you expect them to do? If they spun around in circles for that time, there would be a topic posted about how they taunted the other time by not doing anything for the last 45 secs. As one who plays in sports, where taunting and showmanship is part of the game, I feel insulted more when someone stops trying just because they know that we have no chance of beating them. its a sport, scores like that happen. You never see a NBA team stop playing because there winning to the point that they couldn't possibly lose. You never see a football team stop playing defence because there ahead by 70 points (just a random number by the way). Its how sports work, you try your best, you see what the outcome is, you go about it in a fair positive way, and no body should feel like crap afterwards.

[teenmisfit]

Originally Posted by skimoose

Scott, I wasn't offended, nor did I see this as an affront to the winning alliance. However, I do see your views as hurting the FIRST program in general. FIRST is about inspiring students. Great matches inspire students.

Even when our team is on the losing side of a match, we get inspired by a great winning alliance. We try to take something positive out of the experience. Whether it's new mechanical systems that made a great robot, great driving skills, a unique strategy, or just a well executed plan. Is it fun to lose? NO, but we WANT to go back and work harder! "Wait 'til next year" isn't a bad thing, it's a door opening to unlimited possibilities.

FIRST has gone out of their way this year to try to bring parity to the competition through the rules. Some of these changes aren't for the better. Instead of inspiring teams to work harder and improve to compete with some of the "big boys", they've tried to limit the "big boys" so others feel like they have a chance with a mediocre design. Inspiration doesn't come from average performances or machines, but from the exceptional.

If teams are designing robots and playing the games within the rules, FIRST DOESN'T NEED NASCAR RESTRICTER PLATES!

May the best designs and best game play win. Game ON!

And, this is just my opinion. I don't expect everyone to agree with it either.

You could not be more right! the last two years i sat in the stands and watch our team lose and lose again but its amazing the inspiration you get for next year. all i thought about was how i wanted to be that amazing bot next year. And for once in a great while my dream of having a robot my senior year do well really seals the deal that good things happen in small places. My words are jumbled but my dream of building and driving a robot to victory have come true. (though if you watched, our alliance partners REALLY pulled our weight in the finals. It seemed we didnt do much) This being my senior year and hopefully getting to drive for us again at atlanta. First really does give inspiration, way farther than i thought it would ever hit me. So much emotion went through me over this weekend and if you saw me in the pits after a match u prolly saw me leaning my head on my dad because First helped me achieve a personal goal.

[Petey]

Originally Posted by Dantvman27

then you must agree with me on the ungraciousness of a seed one team being aloud to pick a seed 2 team

I don't agree with this. It may be incestuous but if the powerhouses can pick each other and thus put themselves in a better place to qualify for nationals, that is a good move. 501 and 175 were the two best teams, as determined by the qualifying rounds. Why shouldn't they have the advantage in trying to qualify for nationals?

Originally Posted by DDAwg3

Respectfully I will have to disagree that when teams have a 256 point lead and twenty seconds to go in the match ......they did' nt need to drive up the ramp for the additional 60.

BUT IT WAS AWESOME.

Listen, my team lost in the finals to that alliance, and I've never suffered a more entertaining arse-kicking. Case closed.