What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Ricksta121

Humans resist change, and we will resist change. There is no controling that. What can be controlled, is how we all handle the changes.

That is exactly what i have been thinking lately. I couldn't figure out a proper way to post my thoughts upon why somehow change could be a minor result in the diffrence this year from previous. i still have no clue. My guess goes out to change, not everyone likes it including myself.

[Cody Carey]

First, I'd like to say that I agree with you, Arefin...


I would also like to say that there are many discernible reasons for the spike of ill-meant threads and posts.

Most predominantly of which, is human nature. When you design your robot around something which you expect to be a solid, well-engineered piece of equipment (as is implied by it being in the KOP)... and that object ends up failing; the first human reaction is to be angry. To be upset because something beyond your control caused you to seemingly fail. Few people's first reaction is to solve the problem... and that is one of the many facts of life. I look up to and strive to attain the level of maturity it takes to look at a (seemingly) gigantic problem, and immediately begin trying to formulate an answer; but when you have people under the age of Thirty frequently posting, you can expect to see a little immaturity. That, and just the idea of six hard weeks of building can be enough to bring anyone to a state of constant annoyance.

Another reason that has not been looked upon in a full light, is the fact that first is now over 1300 teams strong. With this great increase in recognition and inspiration, there comes a large increase in some not-so pleasant things as well. Namely an increase in the number of teams that have to lose. Thirteen hundred teams compete, and only three complete that long road to victory. When more teams lose, there will be more complaints.

Oy, a reason that I know is on a lot of peoples' minds, but I'm not going to go into in this particular post, is that maybe FIRST (The organization) is giving FIRST (The developed Community) more to complain about this year.

A reason that I find myself just noticing this year, is the lack of solid representations from non-"elite" teams. ChiefDelphi is a home for the more successful teams in FIRST. There are exceptions to this rule (and I'll be the first to admit that 306 is one such exception), but predominantly... The only robots I see represented are the ones that make me drool. Now, There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an elite team, and I have in fact been inspired by quite a few of them. My only point here is that when you have a discussion between the most involved people in FIRST, It is only to be expected that you will get involved discussions and answers. Answers that include all aspects of a situation, even the bad. The fact that you have posts that are wrought with hard feelings, numerous problems, and few solutions is just a reflection upon real life.

When a community gets as large as FIRST is, it will increase uniformly... There will be just as much increase in the unpleasant as there is in the pleasant. Any trend on ChiefDelphi of there being more good than bad can only be attributed to outstanding moderation.



-Cody C





NOTE: As with all posts, some of you will like what you've read, and some of you will not. There have been no strategically placed smilies to lighten the mood of the post, only opinions. It is out of my hands now. I'd ask that you respond responsibly.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Im sorry for my post earlier this week bashing 1732

You guys must have been a great team to be ranked #1

[Jaine Perotti]

While there have been a number of threads where critical opinions have been posted, do you really believe that it is terribly different from just a few years ago? I've been a member of the ChiefDelphi forums for 3 years, and lurked for about 1 year previous to that. I don't think the frequency of critical posts has risen all that much. There have always been complaints about certain calls, rules, and team actions. There always will be.

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

It’s given that lot of teams and people are frustrated after this season. It started with the Banebots, went to the algorithm of the match listings, ruling of not being able to use tools in the pit, then it was about defense… and we are still going at it. It’s always something new everyday. It has been said before and we are repeating over and over that something needs to be done. There is another thread where there is a moderated discussion about how to improve things that we have dealt with this past season. We have bashed Banebots, FIRST, Teams, GDC, but have any of us take a step back and think that there are over 1300 teams around the world, and not everyone is going to be happy with what is given. There are threads where people posted things saying “It should be done this way,” “or maybe they should handle it this way.” Before posting have you thought about if all those 1300 teams going to be happy with what you came up with? I mean come on, there are only so many active members on Chiefdelphi that come here and read this stuff that we go through. Keep in mind those suggestions only contains ideas, but I have yet to see enough posts where an idea was proposed with “how, when, where, why, who.”

There is nothing wrong with pointing out problems that need to be addressed, and I think you would agree with me on that. Suggestions about how things should be improved are needed in order to maintain the functionality of the FIRST organization. I don't believe every complaint needs to be accompanied by a perfect solution to the problem. Are you saying that if a team has trouble with their Banebots transmission, they have no right to complain because they can't come up with a solution to the problem by themselves? I doubt it. I think your (and my) main beef is with the uninformed, insulting, and destructive posts.

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

It upsets me when I see posts by people in threads discussing incidents that have happened but they weren’t there to witness it themselves. I assume that they pick a “favorite side” and go at it (I am not saying everyone posts like this but structure of some posts makes me believe that).

It upsets me too. But I think the ratio of good posts to bad posts is not as high as you seem to think it is. Arefin, have you ever been a member/avid lurker on any other forums on the internet? I have, and believe me - the quality of posts here (in terms of respect, appropriateness, etc) is much higher than what you see most everywhere else. I'm not saying we should stop trying to reduce the number of bad posts, but I don't think the ChiefDelphi community is in any state of crisis either!

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

What happened to the FIRST community I have joined 6 years ago? What happened to the times when we would do anything to help each other? What happened to the times when the opposing alliance would share 10 ft. of #25 chain so the teams can compete in the finals? We all go out there and talk about how great FIRST is, but over here we talk about is what went wrong, how this or that would have been better.

Again, I don't believe this aspect of FIRST has diminished at all. I have not seen a drop in the willingness of teams to share their resources. Likewise, I have not really seen a disproportionate increase in the number of critical threads for this time of year (as opposed to March/April of previous years). I think you are perceiving an increase only because this is competition season (so naturally the topics of conversation are going to be about the venues, the referees, the plays, etc.).

This is a forum - a means of exchanging ideas! The purpose here isn't to pat ourselves on the backs and proclaim how wonderful we are in every thread! It's human nature to focus on the negatives - just look at the news headlines. People want to discuss the problems so that they can be solved or prevented. That us why ChiefDelphi exists - to discuss and solve the problems we encounter, so that we can improve ourselves and our community.

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

So, please before you post in any technical threads or any threads that has to do with the reputation of some team/person/company, think twice. When you throw an idea out there, please explain why it is better, how is it better. If you don’t have time to make a long post at that time, come back later and think and then post.

I agree that people should wait until they have gathered all of the perspectives/evidence available before they post. However, I must reiterate that I still believe the quality of posting here is quite good. If you reread the thread about Curie semifinals, you will find a large number of well thought out posts and only a small number of posts that were in poor taste. Yes, the bad posts are still there, but I don't think there is a whole lot more that we can do about it. We are never going to be able to eliminate them completely - that shouldn't be our goal. Our goal should be to continue encouraging people to make informed, respectful posts (and we have been doing a good job).

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

I am very frustrated after getting the phone call from the parent. This is the first time in 6 years, anybody have ever talked to me like this about FIRST. Please stop bashing, help to come up with a solution for the problems we find everyday.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the reaction of the parent. ChiefDelphi is not meant to explain to outsiders/newcomers what FIRST is all about. That is what the official FIRST website is for. ChiefDelphi is about what goes on behind the scenes - and therefore is the perfect place to discuss problems and voice complaints. Perhaps you should not have referred her to this site if you felt that reading controversial FIRST topics would have discouraged her from becoming involved in the program.

I think most complaints here are voiced in a reasonable manner. For example, in the thread about what could have been better about championships, I don't think I saw a single post that was disrespectful or rude. I think it's perfectly ok to talk about the negatives. I don't think it's ok to stifle potential criticisms. Just because something is a complaint doesn't mean it's automatically rude. How is FIRST expected to ever make things better for us if we don't allow ourselves to bring it up out of fear? If anything, I think the real problem on ChiefDelphi is how quickly many members judge something as "un-GP" - just because it's not directly praising FIRST. Something is very wrong when people are put down for calling out FIRST on it's mistakes. FIRST isn't a totalitarian dictatorship... is it?

Actually, I think much of the reason why FIRST has "messed up" so many times this year is the lack of differing (and perhaps critical) perspectives within the organization. When I saw Paul Copioli at the social in Atlanta, he said something to Tytus which I thought was very profound. He said that part of the reason why FIRST was having trouble was the fact that it has no competition (i.e. for a better product). Everyone is so focused on patting ourselves on the back that we get a little bit removed from reality (and other, better options out there). We NEED to keep fresh ideas and perspectives flowing in. We can't be afraid to critique the existing system. If we don't, how will it ever get better? If we aren't allowed to speak our minds, how is FIRST any different from being a close-minded clique?

--Jaine

[Chris Marra]

I have tried to keep distant from many of the issues on CD, but observed the same thing as Tom: the people involved in these situations were smart enough to keep their composure, and work towards a solution or explanation even when surrounded by people unable to remain calm and collected.

It takes a certain type of person to recognize a problem, bring it to light, and fix it. In the end, people who are able to hold their heads above the fray are the most well respected and liked in their respective communities. This is what FIRST is about in many situations, and perhaps some people have forgotten this and now that the season is over, will be able to step back and reflect on things. We can't fault anyone for a momentary lapse in posting harsh words or making a complaint about a system if they prove they are not being insolent and that they have a legitimate reason for their actions. I respect the people on ChiefDelphi who have maintained this mantra throughout the season, and been able to clearly and effectively communicate their thoughts, and solve problems.

There really isn't anything wrong with the growth we are seeing here, and the level or type of discussion being posted here, its just a natural process. We merely need to keep an eye out for both ourselves and others to stay within reasonable bounds, and make sure that cooler heads prevail when the last person takes their say. I don't mean this post as a shot or insult to anyone, but merely as a general observation of the current activity. Many issues have been resolved, or explained, and I commend the people involved in that.

[Tytus Gerrish]

When individuals present opinions critiquing FIRST's "Infinite" wisdom, the interpretations of its ideals and goals are closely moderated and often censored. This frustration and dissatisfaction is not a new phenomena in this program. Only recently has a large scale awareness of said frustration surfaced. Those of you who have read my (now much less frequent) posts in the past few years will notice that they are filled with sarcastic and "around the corner" remarks about various shortcomings of the program and people participating in it. Because of the overwhelming amount of want-to-be heroes who jump on any opportunity to "bash and crush" the rebellion, I have found ChiefDelphi and the autonomous followers of FIRST's Ideal Vision repulsive and impossible for me to fully cooperate with. Straightforward posts for me are gone. The community is now speaking out and has therefore changed.

[David Brinza]

It's important to recognize the difference between whining and constructive criticism. Anyone can point out a problem, offering a solution is far more valuable.

When something really bothers you, take the time to identify the cause and when you come up with an idea of how to fix it, then submit a post.

P.S. I wish I was better at doing that than I am.

[Kyle]

I joined these forums in January of 2003 two days prior to the kickoff for the 2003 season and I was browsing them since September of 2002.

I have noticed more threads with a negative undertone to them then in previous years. It seems that as more and more people join these forums and more and more of the members become more experienced in FIRST and its great ways that we are becoming able to have better and more incite full opinions on many things. This year there have been more problems in one season that in the past that I have experienced, yes I did skim through the archives before posting this, with the transmission problems, the random rules posted then taken away. People are voicing their opinions and this year more then ever FIRST is hearing those opinions and we ARE making a difference. The transmission problem was addressed by FIRST. The tools in the pits was addressed and taken care of. Now the big issues are with the reffing and inconsistent rulings at the regional and Championship levels by next season I truly believe that we will solve these problems in some way or at least make them more tolerable for most people.
There is a reoccurring theme in this thread of their are 1300+ teams involved in FIRST this season with 37 regionals, nothing is going to make everyone happy. We must make the best of what we can get and when we can no longer tolerate something then change it. FIRST is what YOU make of it, it can be the best time of your life and inspire you to great things or it can be the worst part of your year but the best part is that no matter what you still learned something.
This time in 2 months most all the arguing and disagreements will be over with, there will still always be posts with READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING! This team and that team are professional/engineer only built. He/She is un GP because of this or that... Sadly those things will never change in this world even our nice almost perfect world of FIRST. Lets all take a deep breath and remember this is just a game there is a whole big world out there and we have to survive that before worrying about being able to bring in tools to the pit or who hit who in what match.

All of this will soon pass and it will then comeback again and again just as the seasons change.

Sorry for some of the randomness of this post, but hey I am witting this at like 0450am so what do you expect. Also sorry for the spelling and grammar errors that I am sure to have committed in this post English is not my first language, my first is bad English, so I apologize.

So I now throw my $1.00 into the bucket and take back my 0.98 cents.

EDIT: I wrote this at 0450am but I was busy at work and could not post it untill 0725.

[Arefin Bari]

Originally Posted by Jaine Perotti

While there have been a number of threads where critical opinions have been posted, do you really believe that it is terribly different from just a few years ago? I've been a member of the ChiefDelphi forums for 3 years, and lurked for about 1 year previous to that. I don't think the frequency of critical posts has risen all that much. There have always been complaints about certain calls, rules, and team actions. There always will be.

Yes it is terribly different from just a few years ago. There have been complaints in the past but not like this.

Originally Posted by Jaine Perotti

There is nothing wrong with pointing out problems that need to be addressed, and I think you would agree with me on that. Suggestions about how things should be improved are needed in order to maintain the functionality of the FIRST organization. I don't believe every complaint needs to be accompanied by a perfect solution to the problem. Are you saying that if a team has trouble with their Banebots transmission, they have no right to complain because they can't come up with a solution to the problem by themselves? I doubt it. I think your (and my) main beef is with the uninformed, insulting, and destructive posts.

Yup, I agree. Problems need to be pointed out. But at the same time provide us with a solution (Ex. In my post I pointed out what Dr. Joe and Shane Colton did).

When did I say in my post that Teams shouldn’t point out if they were having trouble with the transmissions? Please use quotes and the words I said.

Yup, you are right. I was very upset with the uninformed, insulting, and destructive posts. More so, I hate it when people jump on the bandwagon with choosing their favorite side to the topic.

Originally Posted by Jaine Perotti

It upsets me too. But I think the ratio of good posts to bad posts is not as high as you seem to think it is. Arefin, have you ever been a member/avid lurker on any other forums on the internet? I have, and believe me - the quality of posts here (in terms of respect, appropriateness, etc) is much higher than what you see most everywhere else. I'm not saying we should stop trying to reduce the number of bad posts, but I don't think the ChiefDelphi community is in any state of crisis either!

Yes, I have been a member of quite a few other forums. I spend most of my time browsing here than any other forum because of the quality of the posts. Honestly, if you have kept track of Chiefdelphi in the past 3 years (which you have since I have known you), you would agree that there have been more complaints this season than any other season.

Originally Posted by Jaine Perotti

Again, I don't believe this aspect of FIRST has diminished at all. I have not seen a drop in the willingness of teams to share their resources. Likewise, I have not really seen a disproportionate increase in the number of critical threads for this time of year (as opposed to March/April of previous years). I think you are perceiving an increase only because this is competition season (so naturally the topics of conversation are going to be about the venues, the referees, the plays, etc.).

This is a forum - a means of exchanging ideas! The purpose here isn't to pat ourselves on the backs and proclaim how wonderful we are in every thread! It's human nature to focus on the negatives - just look at the news headlines. People want to discuss the problems so that they can be solved or prevented. That us why ChiefDelphi exists - to discuss and solve the problems we encounter, so that we can improve ourselves and our community.

Yup, same here, I haven’t seen a drop in the willingness of teams to share their resources. But I did see teams bashing other teams at the championship (when I was standing right next to them), I am not gong to mention any team numbers. I was very surprised.

“This is a forum – a means of exchanging ideas!”… okay let’s exchange ideas. Let’s not talk about what Team A did to Team B like there have been situations this past season. Pointing it out once is fine, but when there are many posting the same thing over and over, not only it gets boring, it also puts down a whole team. Let Team A and Team B work it out between themselves.

“People want to discuss the problems so that they can be solved or prevented,” you know… discussion solves a problem. But a topic where you have two different sides to it and you have people choosing sides will not solve a problem.

Originally Posted by Jaine Perotti

I agree that people should wait until they have gathered all of the perspectives/evidence available before they post. However, I must reiterate that I still believe the quality of posting here is quite good. If you reread the thread about Curie semifinals, you will find a large number of well thought out posts and only a small number of posts that were in poor taste. Yes, the bad posts are still there, but I don't think there is a whole lot more that we can do about it. We are never going to be able to eliminate them completely - that shouldn't be our goal. Our goal should be to continue encouraging people to make informed, respectful posts (and we have been doing a good job).

Again, if you analyze my post, you will know that I wasn’t talking about the Curie semifinal thread, there are a lot more there than just that one thread. There are very well thought posts. Who said, the goal was to eliminate bad posts? I personally believe, I encourage people to informative and respectful posts.

Originally Posted by Jaine Perotti

I wouldn't be too concerned about the reaction of the parent. ChiefDelphi is not meant to explain to outsiders/newcomers what FIRST is all about. That is what the official FIRST website is for. ChiefDelphi is about what goes on behind the scenes - and therefore is the perfect place to discuss problems and voice complaints. Perhaps you should not have referred her to this site if you felt that reading controversial FIRST topics would have discouraged her from becoming involved in the program.

Jaine, out of everyone I didn’t expect you to say that I shouldn’t be concerned about the reaction of the parent who wants to get involved in FIRST. Maybe you wouldn’t be concerned, but I am.

“Chiefdelphi is about what goes on behind the scenes- and therefore is the perfect place to discuss problems and voice complaints.” Hmm… judging from what you said… maybe … teams and other websites shouldn’t put Chiefdelphi in their “other links” tab. If people are to come here on the forum and find us “complaining,” In this case, that’s how the parent feel, and I am concerned.

Keep the fresh ideas coming and keep discussing them, I love new ideas, but think twice before you post and be respectful.

Jaine, I know you will come back and ask me and point out over and over that people have been respectful on the forum just like you did in your post and I want to tell you right now that I am not saying that people are being disrespectful. In a critical time like this, people need to be reminded to not to post when they are frustrated.

You are a very good reader and you can analyze well. You have the power to write to turn a topic around to a totally something new. I like that.

If you would like to discuss this further, feel free to send me a pm, im, email. I doubt I will be browsing CD for the next week like I always do. Finals are going to kick my butt.

[Jay Shah]

"The harder we fall, the higher we bounce."

I really believe this. I've seen things go downhill before, but following those not-so-good times always comes amazing times - I'm proud to say that both the not-so-good times and the amazing times are part of the learning experience that we call FIRST.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Cuog

I'm almost convinced its just this year. Almost everyone I know has been having problems since New Years, both in and out of FIRST.

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

I so wanted to include that in my post. You read my mind.

I blame it on Pluto being pissed it's not a planet anymore and throwing the cosmos out of whack. LOL
That's my official standpoint on the lighter side.

But on the serious side, something is definitely "up" this past year.
I see it within FIRST and also within my personal life (family, friends etc..)

Kinda sad really.

I remember back in the day in FIRST when the only real stress was at competitions or build season, and even that stress, looking back on my 7 years in this program, wasn't anything a good team or person couldn't handle effectively and maturely.

Lately it's gotten out of control. It's very hard to explain, but then again, so many people know what you are talking about without saying a word that it's so easy to explain at the same time.

I guess that just happens when an organization gets bigger, and more people with differening opinions and personalities are introduced into that system.

I've said this many times before this year when I actually got a chance to think about things, that the dream to "change the culture" is happening, but when you just say "change the culture", isn't a change in any direction, for the good, for the bad, side is still a change?
Maybe what our goal which everyone assumes is the case, but without any assumptions should be to enact a positive change on the culture.

And Arefin, our FIRST family tree is still alive and kicking. It's just (as in every family, or team, or group) every once in a while you see more of the bad apples on that family tree than the strong folks who act as the roots who make up the tree's mighty backbone.

Don't give up hope on this family tree, for it has weathered a lot in the past, and will continue to hold this organization strong with it's effort in the future.

</$0.02>

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

But on the serious side, something is definitely "up" this past year.
I see it within FIRST and also within my personal life (family, friends etc..)

This might be a good topic for another thread rather than high jacking this one but I can't help but think some of this is growing pains for a lot of people. The transition from high school to college and from college to career all while mentoring, can be a little rough. I don't say this to take away from the initial post that Arefin has made or the other posts that have followed but it is a thought I've had as I've read through the thread. And, I think FIRST is experiencing growing pains in some areas as well.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This might be a good topic for another thread rather than high jacking this one but I can't help but think some of this is growing pains for a lot of people. The transition from high school to college and from college to career all while mentoring, can be a little rough. I don't say this to take away from the initial post that Arefin has made or the other posts that have followed but it is a thought I've had as I've read through the thread. And, I think FIRST is experiencing growing pains in some areas as well.

Jane I was thinking the same thing. So many of the community here have gotten older and have so many more pressures on their time and resources. It’s not like it was when they were in high school all very young and full of FIRST spirit. Now they have much time and effort invested in something they love and the passion comes out even stronger.

You guys have built a great community that you can be proud of. It’s become a second family to many but like with all families there comes strife and conflict from time to time.

Has this community changed? Yes, it had too because the people in it have changed. Will it be what it was? Maybe not, especially not for the veterans, it’s a deeper thing for you now but for the new young ones coming up it’s still fresh and new.

It’s hard to keep a family intact and as you grow it will be harder but the rewards are great and worth the effort.

[technoL]

I posted this in the "Please Stop Complaining" thread earlier this season, but I feel as if it is applicable here:

Although it is tireless to read endless threads about dissatisfaction with rules and the game, it is helpful to teams to be able to vent, have someone hear their story, or at least know that someone shared the same experience.

CD isn't just a FIRST-worshiping forum, it's a place where teams come to discuss FIRST and the events related. Controversial rules and issues are discussed, which often lead to heated discussions, but I'm sure at the end of the day, everyone has the same goal, and there is usually not much negative associated with it. So if we just simply address all the good about an event and FIRST, with everything else pushed to the back burner and no criticism, I'm sure that a lot will go undone, and many preventable situations will occur.

Although I am relatively new to FIRST, only being a part of a team for 2 years and Chief Delphi lurker the year previous, I have quickly noticed a trend about the 2007 season that stands out. Although there were more "complaints" and problems this year like everyone else has said, the voice on this site is one thing that I love about FIRST. Unlike most organizations, everyone can be heard and have their opinion accepted respectfully, rather than keeping burning issues swept tightly under the rug. This is a very touchy subject that we're discussing, but hopefully each person that reads through this thread will now post more open-minded or with a better perspective.

Great topic, thanks for bringing it up, Arefin!

-No L

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Every time a big problem was expressed on Chief Delphi, the problem was fixed, or explained.

Viewed from above the water's surface, a duck appears to turn and glide without effort, almost magically. Seen below the surface, that same duck's feet are a churning engine, paddling hard for every increment of progress.

When a problem surfaces on CD one day and has been fixed or explained just a little while later, you can be sure that some duck has been churning unseen feet to make that happen.

Ari, your concerns are well founded; but I'm sure you also know we've got some powerful ducks looking out for FIRST. This year has had its full measure of problems, but we can look forward to a better next year.

I've learned a lot this year and I suspect many others have, too.