Mentors VS Students

[dcbrown]

This is always a pressure point within organizations that generates lots of "issues". At a simplistic level, groups go through the forming, norming, storming, and performing stages... but often get stuck in "storming" due to conflicting goals and expectations. I see this come up often when team leadership vs membership have different ideas or goals on where they are headed.

My motto has been you can't succeed without failure. It may sound funny, but in general I find this true. If you succeed, you typically are not 100% absolutely positively sure on why you succeeded. But have a failure? Oh boy, hindsight is great isn't it!

Mentors can either hide the experience of failure or support the right of a student in gaining that experience. This may sound cruel or cold or heartless -- but in the longer view my personal experience has been that it is always the better choice. Ok, as a mentor its not "fun" to watch and you end up biting your tongue a lot, but still...

The problem is how much failure do you allow to occur (no one LIKES to fail or PLANS to fail... but it happens anyway). Certainly where any safety issue exists, the "responsible adult" in us must step forward to prevent bad things from happening. But as a mentor I'd rather support a crappy design and the passion behind it (while pointing out some possible pitfalls/weaknesses based upon experience) rather than killing off the enthusiasm by seemingly taking over.

Whether the team is mentor run, student staffed or student run, mentor advised or some other combination, this is fine as long as all team members understand that is the team culture and buy-in.

One last thought. Just as you cannot be a leader without followers, you cannot have a team without students.

But that is just another set of random opinions.

[Team2339]

The relation between Mentor/Student should evolve as your team gains experience.
As dcbrown posted, Failure teaches, sucess just is. Our team is also a rookie team. We finally bonded after the van motor ( my dumb idea ) failed to hold the arm up. Ideas poured out like water and the design by students was on.
I am no longer the sole driving force behind design, and the students have started to assert themselves on the team.
Each team develops at their own pace, depending on needs, personalities, and set goals.
Set the goals, set the design, then build the parts. By then, everyone is on the same page.
Definitely work out the differences before the whole thing becomes a bad experience.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Team2339

We finally bonded after the van motor ( my dumb idea ) failed to hold the arm up.

If the goal is to 'force' a failure to get the team jump started started then the idea isn't dumb but really smart.

Now we are talking about original intent, but pssssttt, we will keep it a secret and not tell your students.

Really, it was genius.

[dcbrown]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team2339
We finally bonded after the van motor ( my dumb idea ) failed to hold the arm up.

If the goal is to 'force' a failure to get the team jump started started then the idea isn't dumb but really smart.

Now we are talking about original intent, but pssssttt, we will keep it a secret and not tell your students.

Really, it was genius.

Ditto. What a great strategy to get students to own the process! Pure genius!

[Team 135]

We had a similar problem with one of our mentors recently and what I have to say is that you should always consider what the mentors have to offer your team. Do not make them mad or they may leave your team, it is fully voluntary that they are helping. With that said, FIRST is all about students. It is what you as the student will get out of the experience. Talk with you mentors in a mature fashion and let them know how you feel. As hard as it may be, remember gracious professionalism.

[Cynette]

Originally Posted by Team2339

We finally bonded after the van motor ( my dumb idea ) failed to hold the arm up. Ideas poured out like water and the design by students was on.

Originally Posted by ebarker

If the goal is to 'force' a failure to get the team jump started started then the idea isn't dumb but really smart.

Now we are talking about original intent, but pssssttt, we will keep it a secret and not tell your students.

Really, it was genius.

Exactly my thought also after reading about the failure leading to engagement by the students!

Failure that teaches and inspires isn't failure at all! But if we could just successfully plan that failure we would really be content!

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Cynette

Exactly my thought also after reading about the failure leading to engagement by the students!

Failure that teaches and inspires isn't failure at all! But if we could just successfully plan that failure we would really be content!

And just to be really clear - A mentor can really be effective if she can finesse a work session where the students invent, fail, recover and learn in a time and cost constrained fashion. The mentor doesn't have to prevent the failure. Just make sure it gets done soon enough to allow the team to convert the 'failure' into a 'success'.

[RoXmySoX]

Well we dont have that problem. Our mentors let us do all the work and if they see that we cant do it they suggest but dont exactly give us the solution. Im glad they dont because that way we learn it instead of them giving us shortcuts.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by EricH

If they just plain don't want to work, give them the option to leave the team.

But in any case, you should not tolerate anyone just sitting around doing nothing productive. I'm working, don't consume my oxygen.

Originally Posted by Beth Sweet

What I love about Dave is that he's not afraid to speak the truth, even if people don't want to hear it.

And he's so very articulate and polite when he says it. His signature quote isn't just fluff (wordy harry, indeed!).

[Urban Hawk]

Well... for that reasion we tend to keep our mentors out of the shop and keep them working on fianances.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Urban Hawk

Well... for that reasion we tend to keep our mentors out of the shop and keep them working on fianances.

So what you are saying is: you don't have mentors, you have accountants.

That is unfortunate. Both you and your "mentors" are missing out on some great opportunities. I would really urge you to go back and listen to the discussion from the kick-off. Hopefully, some of the comments there will strike a chord.

-dave




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[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by dlavery

So what you are saying is: you don't have mentors, you have accountants.

That is unfortunate. Both you and your "mentors" are missing out on some great opportunities. I would really urge you to go back and listen to the discussion from the kick-off. Hopefully, some of the comments there will strike a chord.

-dave




.

I agree, except I think FIRST sometimes gives too much benifit of the doubt to mentors, saying they're the bee's knees and the only other option is a bunch of idiot students running around.

Think of the build season as kiddie bowling. Mentors should be the bumpers and your mom who lines you up and gives you advice. They're all there to help you achieve success and offer encouragement, but they can incorrectly be ignored too. The fun thing is finding the balance between the "it's my robot set, get away kids" teams and the "what is a mentor" teams. That's where FIRST works wonders.

[Gdeaver]

The very title of this post exposes the problem. The concept of us and them has been driving the human race crazy for ever. Some think First is all about science and tech. I submit that the greatest benifit First imparts on teams is the TEAM thing. Sounds like this team has failed in this most critical test of the build season. You have not become a TEAM. You are a bunch of bickering individuals. You loose.... For next year your TEAM needs to discuss the people issues and look for methods and activities to build and nurture the team's people skills. This can be much harder than building a robot. This year our TEAM was faced with an insurmountable pile of problems. No money, not enough meeting times, baned from using anything but hand tools, And on and on. But, we came together and work as a TEAM and over came every problem. I am very proud to be a part of this year's team. We won. Now the problem for me is to figure out why this years team came together and why the 2007 team did not to the same degree. The most challenging problems in life are the people problems.

[Scottman]

don't worry the same thing happen to us this year too
there was some conflict between the students and the mentors on the design and how the team was acting and performing, the teachers decided that the robot was the students not the mentors and let the students build the robot how we wanted
just put it behind you and shot for the ship date and if you get it you get it if you don't there is always next year

[PrincessJae]

close to your same situation, we have 12 team members and 3 mentors. They are strickly hands off and give us suggestions on what to do and provide organization and make sure everyones on task. But everything concerning the robot is up to us. They can add advice- but basically we have the final say on everything.