GP? I think not.

[JVN]

I won't tell you how to run your team, and I hope you won't presume to tell us how to run ours.
What would give anyone the right to do something like that?

It is great to be proud of the way you do things, but to imply that everyone should match your way of thinking, is ludicrous.

To offer an opinion is fine, to demand that others adhere to your opinion is laughable.

Why should we care what your opinion is?
Why should you care what my opinion is?

This is an agree to disagree issue; anything else is silly.

-John

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

You also seem to just say that you changed opinions when you became a mentor. Thats alright, but I hope you dont consider your opinion more valid just because of the fact that you are a mentor now, because as you said before, alot of students still felt as you did.

Alternate theory: Tom realized what he was missing in an all-student arrangement when he stepped outside his normal stomping grounds and the experience has made him better for it (in addition to changing his tune, which he is now humming for the group).

Experience is a wonderful thing. From my own experience, I can tell you that the best way to learn from folks to gain that experience is time. (The second-best way, as my signature indicates, is to have a lot of Amtrak points saved up...but that goes back to time.)

[Molten]

I have to agree with the original post to an extent. Often times, mentors do over step their bounds and do more of the work that the students should be doing. I am not saying that the mentors/coaches should sit around and do nothing. It is just my personal opinion that the students should do most of the work. And yes, that is an opinion. So, please don't go on quoting me about my opinion. To all of you out there, just think about whether or not you are overstepping your bounds. I'm not saying that you should change anything. Just keep in mind that it is possible and try not to do it. Granted, everyone's bounds are different. For instance, one mentors bounds might be not milling the parts, while another's might be just not controlling their robot themself. I am not saying that this is happening, I just think it is a serious possibility that all coaches/mentors ought to keep in mind.

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by JVN

Why should we care what your opinion is?
Why should you care what my opinion is?

I feel like that should be part of trying to be GP. And i never demanded anyone feel the same way as I do about anything.

[dez250]

I am not going to comment directly to this conversation, but would like to put out a challenge directly to both Dan and Woody.

Dan, your team, 97, if history repeats itself, is supported by MIT. I am going to challenge you on a time you have free, to visit and have a conversation with a bright professor there in room 3-435. He is insightful and i believe would be able to answer some questions and ideas you have on this topic.


Woody, the challenge i have for you is based off of a post, from you, earlier in the year.

Originally Posted by Woody1458

A little disappointed with our brain trust this year (I can only say that because I am design team head), we only came up with 2 plausible ideas, and are full-size prototyping one right now. Should have a robot mapped out (hopefully CAD'ed) by this friday.

From how it sounds, is that your team is all student based and run, with a direct lack of adult engineering support. I challenge you for over the summer to find an [even just one] engineer to support your team. Beyond this I suggest that you take your current students and new mentor(s) and redesign your 2008 robot to see what areas you can improve on. This work will help mold your team to know how to interact with adults for 2009 and to a point where you will see what insight an engineer can assist with.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I feel like that should be part of trying to be GP. And i never demanded anyone feel the same way as I do about anything.

I am reminded of the phrase:
"A vote says more about the voter than the candidate."
An opinion says more about it's holder, than about reality.

GP mandates that I listen to your opinion, not that I give it any credibility. Credibility is not free. It is the burden of the opinion holder to give it credibility.

Everyone must make their own decisions about who's opinions to give credibility, just as I have.

True maturity is when you find a differing opinion, and you can accept it, even if it does not change yours.
Live and let live, my friend.

-John

PS - You're not the only one who has had unique perspectives on FIRST.

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by JVN

GP mandates that I listen to your opinion, not that I give it any credibility. Credibility is not free. It is the burden of the opinion holder to give it credibility.

So you dont consider the opinion that students can learn from building WITH mentors help, and not mentors help alone a credible opinion? I dont think that opinion is too unique.

[JesseK]

True maturity is when you find a differing opinion, and you can accept it, even if it does not change yours.
Live and let live, my friend.

-John

PS - You're not the only one who has had unique perspectives on FIRST.

I think everyone has (or will have to) faced this particular challenge at some point.



====

My opinion on the two matters concerning mentors and the competitive levels of competition: learning & experience curves are exponential. If you want to take a group of students and let them fumble around when the curve is flat, then you're more than welcome to. However, if you inject them with the knowledge & experience of a few mentors and let the students learn by teaching and by example then those students will be much further along in their learning than they would have been without the mentors. It then becomes apparent why teams that follow this process are very successful on and off the field: they're much further along in the curves. Go figure, this is one of the main FIRST principles that is repeatedly emphasized at kick-off.

Not only does this apply in the build season, but it also applies on the competition fields. Allowing an adult mentor as a coach gives the students an opportunity to learn from someone who is leading by example rather than leading by lecture. My personal opinion on field coaches (I am one so maybe it's biased) is that if an adult isn't the coach then you better have a very mature student as the coach. If you want to actually be high-caliber competitive at the competitions, you will need someone who can handle the pressure and thought processes that need to occur to be successful, as well as be proactive in the preparation of strategies for the matches. The first step to a student being able to coach well is that he/she must want to coach and not to drive...unfortunately many students simply do not understand the difference (and most will never read this post either...)

[DanTod97]

I want to make it clear that I am not arguing that if a student does not have anyone to teach them they will learn. What I am arguing is that If that teacher does most of the work for them, that they will not. (or atleast not as much)

[Dave Flowerday]

Nit-pick: lots of people on this thread keep talking about "learning". I'm all for the students learning through this program, but that is not a goal of FIRST (really!). If you don't believe me, please cite a specific source from FIRST that says anything about FIRST's objective being to "teach". I'm pretty sure it's not there. As others have pointed out, FIRST's material only talks about inspiration.

Oh, and I'd like to repeat Karthik's call for anyone to name me a robot that is 100% mentor-built. I don't think they exist, but I could be wrong. I'm willing to bet, though, that a lot of people hold that misconception about my team (and BTW, if you do think that about 111, take some time and browse our gallery - you'll see plenty of pictures of both students and mentors constructing/working on/repairing our robot).

[Weis]

There are some teams that were at the Great Lakes Regional who were yelling at some of us for standing for our team. Now I am a member of Purdue FIRST Programs so I was there to help and root for three teams. These people behind us were irate that we would stand. That wasn't GP but, it got worse because they kept muttering under their breath at us and doing the little *cough* *downinfrontwecan'tseebecausewehavenoteamspirit* *cough*. That all needs to stop.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I want to make it clear that I am not arguing that if a student does not have anyone to teach them they will learn. What I am arguing is that If that teacher does most of the work for them, that they will not. (or atleast not as much)

I am going to ask some potentially really stupid questions here, but I think they need to be asked.

1. Do you think there are any teams where mentors do 100% of the work for the entire build and competition and students just drive it?
2. If so, is this observation based on seeing this team at competition or have you talked to their students or gone to their build sites?

If you got through #1 and #2 and you have a team that you have talked to or observed during build and competition that is 100% mentor built then maybe you need to speak privately with that team as they are far from the norm in FIRST.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

On the other side of things, having mentors build the whole robot without keeping the kids in the loop doesn't teach anything either. I doubt there are any teams that actually take this route, but obviously it doesn't do much inspiring if the kids don't get to play.

I've only been in FIRST for a grand total of 4 years (incl. this build season), but what I have noticed is that most students that drive mentor-only built bots is that the students have no feel for the mechanical limitations of the bot. Therefore that type of team rarely does very well. Those kinds of teams do exist *cough* one our rookie team neighbors at VCU *cough*, but you rarely hear about them.

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Time constraints often dictate that the best person must work on the robot to get it fixed, and we've only got 20 minutes before we have to be headed to the Queue. That doesn't mean the students never worked on the robot and only watched or held parts for 6-1/2 weeks. While there may be such a team around, I'd guess that even the most mentor-oriented teams don't fall into a 100%/0% built ratio.

A co-worker commented on a photo of our pits this year at VCU and the fact that there were 2 students and 3 mentors working on the bot...why weren't there more students? He didn't accept the explanation I gave him, which is exactly in line with what you've stated here.

I found a photo for him and quieted him though; during the build season on the Saturday right before ship date we have a photo of 9 pairs of hands working on the bot. It wasn't an intentional or posed photo...it just so happened that there were 9 different things that could be done in parallel at that given moment. 7 of the 9 people were students, and it wound up that one of the mentors was just holding something in place (hate to say this, but many mentors are also physically stronger than most students...).

[Weis]

I've seen some robots that I'm sure highschoolers could not have built by themselves. I don't know from talking to their mentors but I have eyes and they seem to be fairly reliable at this point. As for *all* of the work... that I can't say for sure but I would say that their mentors did some serious work.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Weis

I've seen some robots that I'm sure highschoolers could not have built by themselves. I don't know from talking to their mentors but I have eyes and they seem to be fairly reliable at this point. As for *all* of the work... that I can't say for sure but I would say that their mentors did some serious work.

Wow, you seriously underestimate what a high schooler can do with a good mentor to help and guide them. Also, isn't that part of the point? For high schoolers to do things they "could not have" by themselves?


I really don't get this argument in general..... I wasn't a student that long ago and I definitely would not have liked working without help from engineers. I don't get it, is it a pride thing? A jealousy thing? Self taught can only go so far, an engineer will be able to teach you so much more and inspire you even more so.