Adult coach?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

I am still heavily involved with this program (and engineering) because I was heavily involved in school.

I was the field coach because I was heavily involved.

I was not heavily involved because I was the coach.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Kim,
I believe there is just no additional room for three more adults. In a game where there is more human player interaction (which I hope for each and every year) the chaos would take away from the game.

[mgurgol]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

I am still heavily involved with this program (and engineering) because I was heavily involved in school.

I was the field coach because I was heavily involved.

I was not heavily involved because I was the coach.

Wouldn't it be great if you mentored a student coach instead of coaching yourself? Being able to pass on your skills in both coaching and engineering to yet another generation, isn't that what mentoring is all about?

The reward for mentoring is watching the students learn and develop from the experience, without having to be directly involved in the competition.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by mgurgol

Wouldn't it be great if you mentored a student coach instead of coaching yourself?

I was a student, which is really the foundation of the argument I was building.

I was going to stay involved with engineering whether I was the field coach or not. Looking back, it was "fun" and all, but what did I really get out of it? It has occurred to me quite recently that mentoring speeds the development of skills (technical, soft, whatever..) at a much faster rate than students trying to learn things on their own. There's a reason classes have teachers and students are not just handed books or thrown into their field to "figure it out".

Unfortunately our team missed out on a great opportunity to "learn from the pros" because we did student-centric things like insisting on having a student field coach.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Unfortunately our team missed out on a great opportunity to "learn from the pros" because we did student-centric things like insisting on having a student field coach.

There is great truth to this statement regarding the student-centric aspect and the opportunity for learning from professionals and engineers.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Unfortunately our team missed out on a great opportunity to "learn from the pros" because we did student-centric things like insisting on having a student field coach.

It's very gratifying to see FIRST's emphasis validated like this by someone who has experienced things from more than one point of view. While the program is for the benefit of students, it is based on mentors acting as role models -- and not necessarily as teachers.

[chessking132]

Personally i prefer to have a adult coach. This is because i find that there is less arguments and that i will respect/ listen to an adult more. if a student is couching and he is your friend i think that i might put some tension on your relationship. There is allot of stress on the drive team and some things that can be said could real screw up a relationship. Having an adult that you respect can be more effective then a student coach. I have also observed that drive teams with adult coaches are more organized in driver meetings, they are also more prepare with information.

The coach is defiantly a real important part of the drive team with out that possession things might get relay funny on the field.

Matthew Simpson
Team 75 driver

[Pat Roche]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Unfortunately our team missed out on a great opportunity to "learn from the pros" because we did student-centric things like insisting on having a student field coach.

I really liked the way Tom stated this. I myself have been in both situations. The first few years I was involved in the program our team had no engineering support. It was very student-centric. Which for learning how to use tools and how to put things together was great. However, my last few years in high school I was able to work with engineers, machinist and other professionals to learn "how to do things the right way." They taught me to take pride in my work and pushed me to do harder and better things. They (along with my high school science teacher) inspired me to go into engineering. That is something that until there influence I would not have considered doing. Though this logic may not necessarily hold true for having one of them behind the glass there is a lot of merit in having our inspirational figures behind the glass working side by side with the drive teams.

[Karthik]

Some assorted thoughts.

Team 1114 has used an exclusively used an adult coach since 2004, and will continue to do so in the future. Having an adult coach provides our driveteam an unique opportunity to learn and be inspired by industry professionals in the highest paced of environments. In addition, it gives our team the possible chance of success. One of the core values on Simbotics is that winning is a fun and inspirational experience.

Part of FIRST's mission is to help create science and technology heroes. The students of 1114 have many heroes within FIRST, many of whom are adult field coaches of other teams. Our kids get ridiculously excited at even the thought of working with coaches like Raul Olivera, Brian Beatty or Ken Patton. This year in Atlanta, we were fortunate enough to be paired with 217 and 148, coached by Paul Copioli and JVN. The kids are still talking about what an amazing and interesting experience it was to work with these two. These adult coaches are the "rock stars" of our program, and I know on Simbotics the kids really do look up to and aspire to be a great as these coaches.

When it comes to alliance selection, Team 1114 puts a huge emphasis on coaching. We are much more likely to pick a team who has a coach who has a commanding presence in the box, and has been a proven winner through out the years. We have made picks based on this rationale and have never regretted it.

[JVN]

Edit: Karthik beat my by 4 minutes. Apparently we think alike, and he just thinks a little faster. (Or maybe he types faster.)

I've got a lot of different perspectives I could chime in from. I've been a student, been a college mentor, and now I'm a "professional". The argument which gives me the most tingles is this one:

I'm absolutely thrilled that team 1114 and team 217 use adult coaches. Our students got the chance to work hand in hand with Derek Bessette and Paul Copioli.

This was a great thing, and one I'm thankful my students had the opportunity to experience.

Lots of people have quoted Dean and Woodie and Paul and whoever else in this thread. I'm reminded in particular of the quote "We want to live in a society where scientists and engineers are regarded as rock stars."

Well, let me tell you, our students got to stand side by side with Derek and Paul and see exactly WHY these guys are rock stars.

I guess if FIRST ever declares that adult coaches are against the rules, there are some students who will be robbed of all similar experiences in the future.

$.02
-John

[waialua359]

FIRST allows the role of either an adult (mentor, teacher, adult volunteer) or a student.
How teams decide to do it is most obvious in these posts, by some good explanations and team philosophies. Its evident that students gain in either situation.
As an advocate for allowing adult coaches, I played soccer for many years as a kid. Our coaches were adults. Do we say that we should have had one of our peers, coach us instead, so that we get the "full" learning experience? Does having an adult coach us, lesson the learning experience for how we played on the field? Either way, the drivers are students who are playing the game, and not the adults.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Karthik

When it comes to alliance selection, Team 1114 puts a huge emphasis on coaching. We are much more likely to pick a team who has a coach who has a commanding presence in the box, and has been a proven winner through out the years. We have made picks based on this rationale and have never regretted it.

It probably isn't possible for me to put enough disclaimers on this message to avoid being misunderstood, chastised and "educated" by the Robotic Masses, but I'm going to go ahead anyway.

I learned how to work with youth from the Boy Scouts, where I've been an Assistant Scoutmaster for eight years. In Boy Scouts, the adults have the job of training youth leaders, and then getting out of the way and letting them lead. The boys think it's a camping club, but the adults know that it's about helping young men (and women) learn to make ethical choices throughout their lives. Actually, that's a light paraphrase of the mission statement of the Boy Scouts of America. You will notice that there is nothing in that statement about working with adults, camping, wearing uniforms, leadership, working on new skills (rank), or personal growth. Those are the methods of Scouting. Working with adults, camping, etc. are the tools we use to achieve our aim, which is helping young people grow into mature adults.

The mission of FIRST is quite similar, although in a more narrow focus: Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, (...) (and to) foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication and leadership.. The Method is: engaging them (youth) in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, (and) that inspire innovation. I took the mission statement from the FIRST Website and split it into goals and methods. Does this sound familiar? FIRST is Scouting with computers and motors.

The question is not whether an adult coach will be a better coach or not. That is not any part of the FIRST mission -- which, surprise, doesn't even mention robots, just like the Boy Scout mission doesn't include camping. The important question about coaching matches is, does having an adult coach inspire young people to be science and technology leaders and foster well-rounded life capabilities? My belief is that adult coaches can be inspirational to young people. I would also argue, though, that having a mentor train a youth to be an effective coach would be a better lesson on leadership and character building, and would more positively affect both the youth and the mentor.

There are a few FIRST hills I would die on, but this isn't one. (Ask me how I feel about saving blocks of seats at events for a "willing to die on a hill" issue.) Adult coaches are legal, and many teams obviously feel that having a mentor coach is a better solution than training youth for the job. Good for them. Seriously. For me, though, I plan to spend my tournament time in the stands watching the team I help build compete. I guess I'm guilty of heterodoxy, but the FIRST tent should be big enough for both Karthik and me.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

...but the FIRST tent should be big enough for both Karthik and me.

Live and let live is 100% my opinion on this.
I do not fault any team that uses student coaches, and I understand their justification for it.

I just grow irritated when people tell me that what our team does is "wrong" or that we're "depriving our students" somehow.

It is refreshing for me to see Rick's post.
I find it odd that most of the people on the "mentor side" of the mentor/student debate are of the "live and let live" mentality but most of the people on the "student side" of the mentor/student debate are of the "my way or the highway" mentality.

To the "my way or the highway" student coach zealots:
Is the fact that 148 uses a mentor coach really that egregious of an offense in your eyes? Why do you care how WE do things?

I always say find what works best for your team, for your given situation. Why should we rely on someone else to tell me what will work best for our situation?

-John

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by JVN

Live and let live is 100% my opinion on this.
I do not fault any team that uses student coaches, and I understand their justification for it.

I just grow irritated when people tell me that what our team does is "wrong" or that we're "depriving our students" somehow.

John,
After having more than a few intense discussions with adults involved in the student run/student driven side of things - I've decided it is somehow connected to fear. Fear that the student will lose out or be cheated out of experiencing whatever it is the adults want the student(s) to experience. It is sometimes (or often, it seems to me) a case where the adults and the students they impact, can't quite wrap their minds around what the FIRST mission is.

Those that get it, tend to be more of the 'live and let live' variety, understanding and respecting the various situations and what works well or best with the team(s) involved. They also tend to be the ones who have taken the time to learn about FIRST and to understand it.

[Chris Fultz]

Actually, i think 234 has solved the dilema -

i am considered an adult, but i usually act like a kid.