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Unread 09-02-2009, 11:13
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Re: IYO, whats most important

The one thing that no one ever list in scouting but is one of the most important factors is reliability. I don't care if the robot scores a hundred balls a match if I can't count on you being out there for the next three because it's a fragile as china.
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Unread 09-02-2009, 11:20
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Re: IYO, whats most important

While all exterior data should be recorded, especially given the random pairing of opponenets and allies in qualifications, there is ultimately only one stat that matters.

In hockey terms, "+/-". How many points did they score (counting their human player) and how many were scored on them?

Assuming an evened schedule (of not only the "quality" of teams, but the play styles as well), this will show what teams are the best.

Now, given a 7-12 match sample size, it's unlikely that a perfectly balanced schedule will be constructed. So, keep track of who the opponents and allies were, what their play styles were, and how they complimented/detracted eachother.

Look for outliers, and note the factors. Did a bot break down (on either alliance)? Did they have an alliance partner pin the opponent to help them score? Did they get pinned?

Note these outliers to see what play styles will best complimented their abilities, and use that knowledge to your advantage.
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Unread 09-02-2009, 11:31
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Re: IYO, whats most important

I'll separate these out into relevant vs totally non-relevant. Past there, the ranking will be different for each team depending on their strategy. We'll also assume reliability & ability to communicate with their alliance is up there, as those are an 'every year' kind of thing.

Relevant attributes:
Balls Scored
Human Player Balls scored
Empty Cell transported
Traction (gives the ability to push/pin vs other robots)

The rest are irrelevant or are a result of performing something from the list above:
Autonomous Balls Scored (strategy dependent)
Balls in own trailer - this is an iffy one -- it's extremely difficult to control how well your opponents perform, especially with the pinning nature of this game
Balls Shot
Scoring percentage (Balls Scored/Balls Shot)
Human Player Balls Shot
Human Player Scoring percentagae
Speed
Strength
Super Cell Scored
Driving Skill
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Unread 09-02-2009, 11:43
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Re: IYO, whats most important

It's important to remember that you're scouting with volunteer labor (typically anyways). If you make them record minute details, your scouts will get bored, which will affect their accuracy on the statistics that matter, and may simply rebel and stop recording period. We use mostly parents as round scouts (we're a small team, students are busy keeping the robot running!), and most of them aren't involved much with the game, so we keep it simple.
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Unread 09-02-2009, 16:02
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Re: IYO, whats most important

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Originally Posted by Koko Ed View Post
The one thing that no one ever list in scouting but is one of the most important factors is reliability. I don't care if the robot scores a hundred balls a match if I can't count on you being out there for the next three because it's a fragile as china.
I'll second this. Reliability is one of the most important things we take into account for our scouting. We watch every match a team has, and if they are having a lot of mechanical failures that is often one of the first teams removed from our list.
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Unread 10-02-2009, 17:58
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Re: IYO, whats most important

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Originally Posted by Herodotus View Post
I'll second this. Reliability is one of the most important things we take into account for our scouting. We watch every match a team has, and if they are having a lot of mechanical failures that is often one of the first teams removed from our list.
...and yet how do you quantify reliability? If not quantified, how do you assure that you're making non-biased decisions?
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Unread 10-02-2009, 18:13
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Re: IYO, whats most important

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Originally Posted by SentientCitrus View Post
...and yet how do you quantify reliability? If not quantified, how do you assure that you're making non-biased decisions?
There are ways.

Let's say that a team is scoring 30-40 points per match, and then suddenly, for a match or two, they go down to 10-20. Then they go back up to 30-40 for a match or two, then down, then up. That's an almost surefire indicator that they are not reliable. It may be that it's different drive teams, or it may be something much more serious. Track me so far?

If a team is consistently getting broken, your scouts can also note that. The team's performance will suffer if they can't fix their robot for the next match.

There are a number of ways to do this, but you can almost certainly do it with the data you already collect.

For me, my biggest concerns this year are: 1: reliability; 2: points scored; 3: points scored on; 4: presence (or not) of an automode. 5 would be collected vs scored; 6, the HP. Other than that, where do they load up?
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:00
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Re: IYO, whats most important

Quote:
Originally Posted by SentientCitrus View Post
...and yet how do you quantify reliability? If not quantified, how do you assure that you're making non-biased decisions?
Simple. You create a "range" of scores you deem to be reliable (say, a range of +/-15 points from average). You see how many scores fall within that range of their average score and how many do not. You can then rank teams by reliability.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:04
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Re: IYO, whats most important

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
Simple. You create a "range" of scores you deem to be reliable (say, a range of +/-15 points from average). You see how many scores fall within that range of their average score and how many do not. You can then rank teams by reliability.
Aka standard deviation. The range of scores from (mean - 1 std. dev) to (mean + 1 std dev.) should hold 75% of all of the data points for a team. The smaller this number, the more consistency there is in the scoring. The great thing about it is that standard deviation is independent of the actual value of the mean (aka average). So if a team consistently scores +/- 15 points from an mean of 20 points per match (i.e. the range is a 5 point match low score to a 35 point match high score), that team will have the same standard deviation as a team who's mean is way up there at 80 who also has a +/- 15 point range.

Then of course, it will be up to the scouts who are watching to eliminate out any outliers from the data. Outliers are matches in which (for example) both of your alliance partners did not work, which is not typical of a match your team is capable of, hence the reason for the very low score.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:09
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Re: IYO, whats most important

I agree with what Sean is saying.

However, there is/will be a type of robot that does not score, but may produce scoring attempts. The "little box on wheels" bot, that will be able to (try) and pin an opponent in hopes that their teammates can come and score on said opponent.

On a robot like this, speed/traction/driving skill/effectiveness/reliability will all be the MAIN factors, not the irrelevant ones.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:18
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Re: IYO, whats most important

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Originally Posted by Brandon Holley View Post
I agree with what Sean is saying.

However, there is/will be a type of robot that does not score, but may produce scoring attempts. The "little box on wheels" bot, that will be able to (try) and pin an opponent in hopes that their teammates can come and score on said opponent.

On a robot like this, speed/traction/driving skill/effectiveness/reliability will all be the MAIN factors, not the irrelevant ones.
That's where you look at the "+/-" of the alliance (which can direct equate to score, but might not if you chose to eliminate penalties and/or super cells from the scouting data for this aspect) rather than the individual robot.
While this introduces additional variables (who were their partners), those variables should be able to be defined by the other data you have collected.

For example. Boxbot A is paired with Scorebot A.
If Boxbot A's alliance +/- is considerably higher than usual, it's likely that Scorebot A played a role in that.
If Scorebot A's individual +/- is considerably higher than usual, it's likely that Boxbot A played a role in that.

Reality will be more complex (you'd have to look at how good the opponents are at defense, the 3rd partner, etc), but you get the idea.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:39
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Re: IYO, whats most important

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post

For example. Boxbot A is paired with Scorebot A.
If Boxbot A's alliance +/- is considerably higher than usual, it's likely that Scorebot A played a role in that.
If Scorebot A's individual +/- is considerably higher than usual, it's likely that Boxbot A played a role in that.

Reality will be more complex (you'd have to look at how good the opponents are at defense, the 3rd partner, etc), but you get the idea.
I see where your going with that, but I still feel like if you put a list down of +/-'s (much like you would do in an alliance captain role) it will be hard to see the value of a robot such as boxbot.

Alliance +/- will reflect this if we assume even alliance distribution. However, me and you both know this often isn't the case, and teams +/-'s may be skewed depending on whether they consistently are with or against good robots.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:49
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Re: IYO, whats most important

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Originally Posted by Brandon Holley View Post
I see where your going with that, but I still feel like if you put a list down of +/-'s (much like you would do in an alliance captain role) it will be hard to see the value of a robot such as boxbot.

Alliance +/- will reflect this if we assume even alliance distribution. However, me and you both know this often isn't the case, and teams +/-'s may be skewed depending on whether they consistently are with or against good robots.
I see where we're getting the disconect. The point of the +/- isn't to be a finished ranking calculation, but rather as data.
It's something you'd review friday night (maybe saturday for procrastinators) to compile your pick lists, not the pick list in itself.

I see as much value in the outliers as I do in the averages. As you review the data, if you notice that time after time scoring teams have good matches when paired with Boxbot A, you might want to pick Boxbot A.

+/- serves as a statistic that will enable quick evaluation of the total data. It will enable you to see how consistent robot's are, as well as quickly identify outlier matches so you can determine what caused them (whether it be a mechanical failure, match-up against strong opponents, or a good partner).
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:58
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Re: IYO, whats most important

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
I see where we're getting the disconect. The point of the +/- isn't to be a finished ranking calculation, but rather as data.
It's something you'd review friday night (maybe saturday for procrastinators) to compile your pick lists, not the pick list in itself.

I see as much value in the outliers as I do in the averages. As you review the data, if you notice that time after time scoring teams have good matches when paired with Boxbot A, you might want to pick Boxbot A.

+/- serves as a statistic that will enable quick evaluation of the total data. It will enable you to see how consistent robot's are, as well as quickly identify outlier matches so you can determine what caused them (whether it be a mechanical failure, match-up against strong opponents, or a good partner).
Ahh yes...I see where we were not seeing eye to eye now. Yes I agree completely...the outliers have as much value as the averages.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 18:55
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Re: IYO, whats most important

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
I see where we're getting the disconect. The point of the +/- isn't to be a finished ranking calculation, but rather as data.
It's something you'd review friday night (maybe saturday for procrastinators) to compile your pick lists, not the pick list in itself.

I see as much value in the outliers as I do in the averages. As you review the data, if you notice that time after time scoring teams have good matches when paired with Boxbot A, you might want to pick Boxbot A.

+/- serves as a statistic that will enable quick evaluation of the total data. It will enable you to see how consistent robot's are, as well as quickly identify outlier matches so you can determine what caused them (whether it be a mechanical failure, match-up against strong opponents, or a good partner).
Hmmm ... This give me some ideas.

With this data, could you not tell which robot increased it's partners +/- rating by the most (or highest average increase) ? And wouldn't that show you a robot that may be a great fit for scorers even though itself may not be a prolific scorer?
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