Winning Drive Train

[AdamHeard]

Wow, all you guys were only able to push 3 robots sideways? We easily pushed 5, but never did so because we wanted to keep our alliance partners free....

Actually, I'm on John with this one. Anecdotal evidence and stories don't mean anything; what I've learned from this thread so far is that, A) Every drive type so far is the best, or B) some people are exaggerating.

There is no need to toot your own horn, as most people just flat out won't believe you.

As for this game, i don't think a definitive answer to what drive test is best exists. 111 was an extremely good dumper with crab drive, but was it the crab that made them effective? I don't think so, I think 111 with a 6 would've been just as effective. Not to mention, even though 111 was extremely good, I think there are some other dumpers out there without crabs that are better in my opinion. 67 and 217 are tied in my head (along with a few others) for being the best robots this year, and both showed they were extremely manueverable with a wide 6 wheel. I imagine they drove that 6 wheel better than a lot of teams drove crabs.



In the end, people can throw all the stories at me they want, but I'm never going to let mere stories convince me physics is wrong.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Actually, I'm on John with this one. Anecdotal evidence and stories don't mean anything; what I've learned from this thread so far is that, A) Every drive type so far is the best, or B) some people are exaggerating.

There is no need to toot your own horn, as most people just flat out won't believe you.

As for this game, i don't think a definitive answer to what drive test is best exists.

I agree with Adam. The other question (which hasn't been fully defined) is, Best at what? Offense, defense, pinning, avoiding pinning, etc. Sure, you can build a great offensive drivetrain, but somebody with a great defensive drivetrain may be able to beat you. There is a difference, I'd say.

[dipmeinaluminum]

Originally Posted by kramarczyk

I thought this was a good year to really nail that whole Ff=mu*Fn into people's head, but to get it past my kids we had to do some quicky tests to prove it. See attached data.

WOW! thats for that was alot for me to read on my phone! i had to wait till i came home, but thanks!!!

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Wow, all you guys were only able to push 3 robots sideways? We easily pushed 5, but never did so because we wanted to keep our alliance partners free....
.

are we talking about dead stop pushing or full speed ramming? because i can push robots around when at full speed 100% traction.

Originally Posted by EricH

I agree with Adam. The other question (which hasn't been fully defined) is, Best at what? Offense, defense, pinning, avoiding pinning, etc. Sure, you can build a great offensive drivetrain, but somebody with a great defensive drivetrain may be able to beat you. There is a difference, I'd say.

The problem: The Feild + KOP wheels... what was the best solution? it dosent matter about offensive or devensive. what matters is out of all the different combonations teams came up with, which concept was the most effective? the fan? the 100+ wheels? the programming? 4 wheel tank 1 CIM? 2 CIM? Wide base ?narrow base? etc...
i look at my team with 4 wheel tank 2 ONE CIM each side with KOP gear boxs at 119.8lbs and no traction programming i say this was an avg drive train. not a winning one.
you may be right when you look at playing on carpet, but 2009 was a little different.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by dipmeinaluminum

The problem: The Feild + KOP wheels... what was the best solution? it dosent matter about offensive or devensive. what matters is out of all the different combonations teams came up with, which concept was the most effective? the fan? the 100+ wheels? the programming? 4 wheel tank 1 CIM? 2 CIM? Wide base ?narrow base? etc...
i look at my team with 4 wheel tank 2 ONE CIM each side with KOP gear boxs at 119.8lbs and no traction programming i say this was an avg drive train. not a winning one.
you may be right when you look at playing on carpet, but 2009 was a little different.

Look at 330's drivetrain. Defense was their specialty, yet they didn't often pin and liked to score a lot. 6WD, very narrow, sort-of crab, traction controlled. Effective? Maybe. Most effective? Probably not, depending on your definition of most effective. Decent all-around, but not outstanding at any one thing.

And you STILL haven't defined "most effective". Most effective at what?

And with all those combinations you list, you may be right playing on carpet, but 2009 was a little different.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by EricH

Look at 330's drivetrain. Defense was their specialty, yet they didn't often pin and liked to score a lot. 6WD, very narrow, sort-of crab, traction controlled. Effective? Maybe. Most effective? Probably not, depending on your definition of most effective. Decent all-around, but not outstanding at any one thing.

And you STILL haven't defined "most effective". Most effective at what?

And with all those combinations you list, you may be right playing on carpet, but 2009 was a little different.

3who?

[SamC]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

3who?

you know... those beach city robot kids... haha

[MrForbes]

4 rear wheels close to rear of robot, with weight over them most of the time, makes for very easy steering with the trailer.

[Brad Voracek]

We did no testing, no precision drilling, just 2 holes on the ends of 2 pieces of box tubing, stuck an axle through them, wide drive base, the widest footprint and longest footprint we could give ourselves.

And it worked awesome.

Lol.

[Akash Rastogi]

I know its probably highly unlikely, but did anyone get to measure pushing/pulling forces on new FRP materials like on Einstein and compare the numbers to heavily worn FRP? It would be interesting to see how much the results differed from FRP dust and lots of other factors. Significant addition in traction? No effect at all?

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I know its probably highly unlikely, but did anyone get to measure pushing/pulling forces on new FRP materials like on Einstein and compare the numbers to heavily worn FRP? It would be interesting to see how much the results differed from FRP dust and lots of other factors. Significant addition in traction? No effect at all?

I talked to people on 1218 and their driver commented that the unworn Regolith behaved completely differently than on the Archimedes field.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I know its probably highly unlikely, but did anyone get to measure pushing/pulling forces on new FRP materials like on Einstein and compare the numbers to heavily worn FRP? It would be interesting to see how much the results differed from FRP dust and lots of other factors. Significant addition in traction? No effect at all?

Akash,
After several months of practice and several events, I have come to the conclusion that the point of contact with the floor of any wheel is so small that other factors seem to have little effect. I have seen small spots on the floor worn through the surface or have the high spots removed by repeated slipping in one spot. However, the chance of that small spot and your wheel meeting for increased friction is very small and only lasts a fraction of a second. In practice (at our shop) our wheels were picking up all kinds of debris from the floor including what appeared to be wax, to the point they were completely coated. At events, the field people were cleaning the floor at regular intervals to keep the grit to a minimum and clear the floor of the normal hardware, wire ties and insulation from wire. I examined several of these pads after a cleaning and found that same waxy type of coating and extreme amounts of dirt and dust. Anyone who was near the field knows that they were breathing this fine dust and it covered my laptop at the regionals where I inspected everyday. The good news is that every robot that practiced or played one match came off the field with significantly cleaner wheels than when they started. As inspectors we feared we would be making teams sand or clean wheels on a regular basis. That fear was unfounded during the first week regionals. I have a bag of sand paper and sanding blocks at home that went unused.
When we tested pulling force on our field there was no perceptible change from the first day to ship. And the same was true at several places on the floor. I would suspected that humidity might have made a difference but it turns out that the surface is sealed with an overcoat of resin.

[ShaunT]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

As for this game, i don't think a definitive answer to what drive test is best exists. 111 was an extremely good dumper with crab drive, but was it the crab that made them effective? I don't think so, I think 111 with a 6 would've been just as effective. Not to mention, even though 111 was extremely good, I think there are some other dumpers out there without crabs that are better in my opinion. 67 and 217 are tied in my head (along with a few others) for being the best robots this year, and both showed they were extremely manueverable with a wide 6 wheel. I imagine they drove that 6 wheel better than a lot of teams drove crabs.

I disagree. The reason 111 was such a good dumper was because of swerve; it simply was not possible to lock them down 1 on 1. They were also able to slide sideways and keep the front of their robot oriented toward the trailer. If there was any one thing I could have changed about our robot this year, it would have been the addition of swerve drive (besides, we actually came at weight this year...)

If you watch 1717's videos, they had a trick where they could go face to face with another robot, then slide around to hit them on the side. This is especially useful because for robots like ours and 1717, if we get you on the side we will fill your trailer. Unless you have fans or swerve, it simply is not possible to break out of one of us pushing the side before we empty our screw into the trailer.