What Happens To Your Attitude Towards Gracious Professionalism When You Leave FIRST?

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I think part of the disconnect can occur on days when the college student is having a particularly rough day/week (Midterms and Finals come to mind) Another portion could be a very pessimistic view of their future, in engineering many people who have a decade of experience cannot get a job right now, what chance do I have?

Personally I make a point not to let my personal pessimism and cynicism show to a student until I trust that they know me well enough to see I am having a bad day.

As for what can be done to correct a disconnect, should it be discovered in college age students? The simple approach would be to remind engineers that it isn't always just the high schoolers who occasionally need inspiration, college students and fellow mentors often need just as much inspiration from time to time.

I can vouch for Andrew when he says he doesn't let any cynicism and pessimism transfer over to a student. There are times when we talk as friends and joke around about things like this, but then the most important times are when he says "I'm telling you this as a mentor," no matter what it is, those moments mean a lot.

[joeweber]

GP is a great concept that needs to be taught to the students. You can not expect them to just pick it up through the season. We had a student that talked negative and like most young kids they think its cool to be negative, adults also do the negative thing. We had to teach the student how to be gracious and professional. When ever the student started to speak negative we would correct him/her. By the end of the season this student had a whole different positive attitude that was great to work with. If you are a naturally negative person you have to work at GP and learn it but it can be done and it will reward you more than you think. If you’re a collage student going into a negative work atmosphere you will have to work extra hard using GP and do your job to the best of your ability. Doing so will make you stand out in the crowd and help elevate you above the others. Not all work places are cut throat, and if they are they usually will not last.

[maltz1881]

As a business owner and FIRST support/coach/mentor/college student (and anything else you want to throw into the mix!) GP is extremely import in many different aspects.

1. As a business owner for the past 17 years, I will tell you I am in business for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only. To make money. Pure and simple. That may be tough for some to understand but if you aren't making money then there is no job. I enjoy having competition, it is a game. Who will win the contract, it is the thrill of the game! if I'm not making money, you don't have a job!

2. I deal with pain in the butt customers on a daily basis. In my head I tell myself 'poor planning on your part doesn't make for an emergency on my part". However if I was to say that I would be out of business. I grit my teeth and put a smile on my face and tell the customer "not a problem, we can take of anything'!

3. As a coach/mentor to 2 FIRST Teams, it is my job to teach kids (and some parents) that GP is of the utmost importance. Nothing will get built without it. We may not like the person we have to work with but you will put the perverbal smile on your face and deal with it. I had 2 girls who came from different areas in life. 1 decided to be somewhat aggressive verbally only because the other was made safety captain. She decided she wasn't going to follow the safety rules. Before all was said and done the 2 became very good friends. We had to teach her that this is how to be GP.

4. Oh college students, I have a new found sympathy for you! Having to work, have a ton of homework placed on you and oh those mid terms and finals! Yes you deserve kudos and a huge pat on the back. At age 46 I decided it was time for me to go to college for the first time. I graduated in just a few months but now I am looking towards getting a master's. You have to use GP just to get by. Those professors aren't going to give you the time of the day without it. If I was to approach a professor with an attitude i am sure it is somehow going to reflect on my grade.

Don't give up on others. I believe in killing grumps with a smile!

[Carmine Rizzo]

Gracious Professionalism

What is it?

This is something you do not learn. This value is in all of us and some bring it out gradually, some hide it and most it's always apparent. Parents encourage it, Faculty advisors request it and mentors have a means to provide it and inspire it. It is not just how you talk to somebody, it is how you listen to them, and it’s not just how you treat them and its how you like to be treated at the worst time of your life. In my team, I expect it! Team’s talk to each other negatively about another and talk to other’s who are friendly with that team positively, this is not gracious. When you hear things and you allow others to do this, this is not gracious. Just because they cannot hear, what you have said; does not mean that you are gracious. If you speak negatively about another or some team and it is about facts. Would this be a violation of Gracious Professionalism? I do not think it would be if it only about the facts, it is only when you add innuendos and opinions, then this becomes un-gracious

I have witness teams speak negatively about themselves and other teams while they were in the shadows. What they stated had been un-Gracious. In these events I try to speak up you never know who is watching or listening. Some of the teams speaking negatively who were doing the talking have won the most prestigious awards in FIRST and they were not acting in the spirit of Gracious Professionalism. This just tells me that FIRST is losing its roots.

I remember the days when all teams were gracious and we all help each other.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I can vouch for Andrew when he says he doesn't let any cynicism and pessimism transfer over to a student. There are times when we talk as friends and joke around about things like this, but then the most important times are when he says "I'm telling you this as a mentor," no matter what it is, those moments mean a lot.

Posting a rant about how Gracious Professionalism will never find its way into "the real world" on a public forum visited by hundreds, if not thousands of high school FIRSTers hardly seems in line with preventing the transfer of any cynicism and pessimism into students.


That said, preventing the transfer of any cynicism and pessimism seems an awful lot like censoring, and no one likes to be censored. Healthy debate is always good, and that seems to be what we have here.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

Posting a rant about how Gracious Professionalism will never find its way into "the real world" on a public forum visited by hundreds, if not thousands of high school FIRSTers hardly seems in line with preventing the transfer of any cynicism and pessimism into students.


That said, preventing the transfer of any cynicism and pessimism seems an awful lot like censoring, and no one likes to be censored. Healthy debate is always good, and that seems to be what we have here.

You would prefer I had lied and said that the real world was full of roses and bunnies and rainbows? I could do that but I felt it was more important to let the students know the real world doesn't want GP, it wants profit. GP can't be gently put into the real world. I believe my posts accurately reflects my views of the real world. Additionally it helped spur discussion, without someone taking an opposite side this discussion would quickly have ended.

As a mentor I do try my best, I am only human, we all fail sometimes, my rant was partially fueled by my frustrations at school and work, working in this sort of economy as a CoOp is not a pleasant experience. As such many of us are quite stressed and more and more people are cynical about our futures. I believe it is in our best interests not to hide our views of reality from our students, to do that would be dishonest and against our goals. Only by presenting the cold hard stuff of reality can we be sure our students are adequately informed to choose engineering as a major.

[Akash Rastogi]

I wanted to throw in an opinion I've had for a long time about "gracious professionalism" and how its viewed on here by many as "a way to live by" and other 'fluffy' things like that. It bothers me when people criticize others for not being "gp" about something based on how they view what "gp" is.

I don't view gracious professionalism itself as something to live by or to consider in everyday life. I believe in friendly competition, yes, but I find it amusing when another person is judged by his/her peers for what they are doing. Funny thing is who I'll be quoting on this.

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I would have to say that GP is a measurement that can only apply to yourself. To apply it to another is unfair to that person/group. I would like to submit as an example a war, particularly the Crusades. Both sides felt they were acting for the best, so which side was GP and which side wasn't? Apply this to any modern day conflict. In Iraq is America being GP? GP can only be judged by the party themselves.

I preferred the days before I joined FIRST because I didn't know the muddled, eschewed, and obfuscated meanings and perceptions of this concept people call Gracious Professionalism. I like being gracious, I like being professional, but when it comes to how I act in the real world, I prefer to just consider myself an ethical and moral person. These two words, same as gracious professionalism, have their own and different meaning for me than others may perceive them.

So one thing I would like to ask of the posters on here: Do you find yourself judging the ethics or morals of another person or peer? If so, I view that as you judging someone's "level" of gracious professionalism.

And Mr. Rizzo, I respectfully disagree. I do not believe FIRST is growing apart from its roots. I do believe it is growing though, its growing in a way that's accepted by the mindsets of OUR generation. The way I perceive FIRST to be is a great organization that is successfully completing the IRST part of its name; however, nowhere in that name are the letters G and P. Perhaps when we teach our students about GP, we should help them understand what it is by using simple, well known, and well lived terms such as moral fiber, respect, ethics, and sportsmanship. I don't see a need for students to try to understand the term GP because it gets convoluted and changed by every person who hears about it, thus, there's nothing definitive to teach them.

(This is all my view, not my teams)

[JaneYoung]

It doesn't have to be convoluted.

From the FIRST website:

http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=36

Let's not fight, please. Discuss yes, fight no. Please.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

It doesn't have to be convoluted.

From the FIRST website:

http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=36

Let's not fight, please. Discuss yes, fight no. Please.

My point was how it gets convoluted and defined differently by many people, even on these forums, and then they judge others or comments of others based on their own definition.

And I was not starting a fight, I kept my post calm (doesn't transfer in text?)

[GaryVoshol]

I recall discussing the attitude of several new employees at work, "Oh, he's still young and not disallusioned yet. He'll learn." And yes, we all learn, and we all become somewhat disillusioned. But that's because for the most part we we have too high of an illusion in the first place. Most of us aren't going to "change the world".

That sounds cynical, but it really isn't. I prefer realistic. And I would submit that most people who do end up being in a position to change the world don't start out that way, and don't start out trying to be that way.

But being disallusioned by the world doesn't mean we have to be disallusioned about ourselves. We do what we can in our part of the world. Who knows, maybe your little assignment will turn out to be something that, taken together with a lot of other little assignments, will change the world. All along the way you can act in a professional manner, getting your job done, meeting your deadlines, producing your own quality work. And if you can be gracious about it, not complaining about your workload, not carping at the faults of others, then you will have achieved your own GP.

Now, to go off on a tangent -

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

From the FIRST website:

http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=36

Shouldn't FIRST's own website show the (tm) symbol for "Gracious Professionalism" and "Coopertition"?

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

I recall discussing the attitude of several new employees at work, "Oh, he's still young and not disallusioned yet. He'll learn." And yes, we all learn, and we all become somewhat disillusioned. But that's because for the most part we we have too high of an illusion in the first place. Most of us aren't going to "change the world".

Gary, I thought about this one for a while... and at first the very first part rang very true. I've heard it many times as well. Maybe even uttered it once or twice. I've seen the political ways of this world, I've even seen the political ploys of FIRST... we all feel disallusioned at one point or another.

But Im also a big proponent of that this world is what you make of it. Are there days where I can't get myself to feel the world is positive? Yup. But overall, I hope that I am making this world all that I can.

Now for the part "most of us aren't going to change the world". I've said it before and said it again... when I graduated high school, my goal in starting 229 was just simply "to inspire just one student the way I had been inspired". 11 years and two teams later, I'm in awe of how many kids 229 and 1511 have inspired. And I will be a little selfish here... YUP - I did that! My one little goal, pushing past the "college mentors dont know enough", is what founded 229 and then 1511. I would like to think that this "changed the world" even just a little, for the better. I could ramble on about individual student stories, but many of those are in other threads. I think we have to WANT to change the world and BELIEVE that we can change the world for anything to work.

Are we going to completely change the culture overnight? NO. Are we going to make businessess not be greedy? NO. Will things someday not revolve around money and have pretty pink roses everywhere? Heck no.

But to go back to the original topic... my answer to the solution is in the way I run my team. I dont disallusion them. I dont pretend that everything is and should be GP all the time. I often tell them the cold hard facts. I tell them about the politics inherant in corporate culture, politics in FIRST, politics in the school system etc. I try to shield them from having to deal with it, but I let them see the reality. I hope by doing that they will have realistic expectations of the world and realize that if they really WANT to see a change, it is COMPLETELY up to them.

But the idea for change HAS to be realistic. Plain and simple companies have to make profit. But several companies have shown us that they can have fun doing it and create a great culture where their employees can be open and honest, and can help create the culture (which usually adhere's to GP). Is every engineering business like that?? HECK NO. Are 50% of them like that?? I Highly doubt it. But its up to us to start the wave... if an entire generation comes in, believing that they can make money AND be graciously professional, and they do NOT allow themselves to become jaded and cynical, pushing past all the current politics.. eventually, when they become managers, they will be able to instill that culture... and we will have succeeded.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

1. GP can't be gently put into the real world.
2. without someone taking an opposite side this discussion would quickly have ended.
3. As a mentor I do try my best, I am only human, we all fail sometimes
4. Only by presenting the cold hard stuff of reality can we be sure our students are adequately informed to choose engineering as a major.

DISCLAIMER: I dissected this post and numbered them because I want to highlight a few points and discuss them individually. They are not in the context that they were wrote in originally, however I will be speaking with regards to the original post. The quote above is only to show which points I am referring to. If you want to read their context be sure to refer to the post it was quoted from.

Now, onto my discussion.

On point number one, GP isn't being put gently into the real world. The approach FIRST uses is a bit more forceful then that. If they thought it was something to be gentle with, they would have made it a suggestion rather then a basis for awards.

Secondly, thanks for presenting a more bitter view then most. Without it, we would not be able to discuss. It's kind of like the one hand clapping. If only one side talks, there isn't a conversation.

Third point. As I've read this post, I've noticed alot of people use the phrase "only human". This is a common thought that I've heard many times that I honestly don't agree with. This can be used for any short fall without many people objecting. I just don't see any of us as "only human". I know I'm human. And with that comes a great amount of ability. Look at the things we have accomplished and try and say they are "only human". Perhaps if the word "only" were removed it would be more fitting. We are human. No more or less then Isaac Newton or Mohatma Ghandi. If we fall short of the greatness they achieved, it has more to do with who we are then what we are. I aspire to no such greatness, I just go out and do my best. I will blame my failures on my ill preparations, my lack of dedication, or my circumstances. But I will never use the term "I'm only human" because it seems to belittle what it means to be human and the things a human can achieve. I am in no way trying to single out Andrew on this, but am saying this to all who have used this phrase or thought it. Think about it before you use it again, for it is mighty strong words to be used as an excuse.

Fourth point. (sorry for the rant on three, just been thinking about that one for a while) I would like to suggest the power of placebo. People tend to see what they expect to see. If you tell people how terrible things are ALL the time, the world will seem terrible to them. If you tell them how great things are ALL the time, they might believe you and the world might seem great. However, in the second instance it is more likely they will see a few bad things and be disappointed and feel betrayed. I would like to suggest we present the world as mostly positive and discuss the negative sides when they actually present themselves. With this approach, maybe they will actually see the good and the bad. Afterall, it is our job to inform. That means a unbiased view of the world. Show them the fun of engineering and the hardship that goes with it. This is the only way to truly inform. If you try to give a biased view in either positive or negative light, you are doing a disservice to the students.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

You would prefer I had lied and said that the real world was full of roses and bunnies and rainbows? I could do that but I felt it was more important to let the students know the real world doesn't want GP, it wants profit.

No! I would say you did the right thing! I was trying to say that I think preventing pessimism from creeping into students would be a pointless endeavor.

[ayeckley]

I believe that the effectiveness of what we call GP (it goes by other names outside of FRC) cannot be judged early in one's life. It's a much longer-term investment, yet offers surprisingly high returns. Just like 401(k) plans, the important thing is to keep making contributions even when it seems there's no reward for it.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by ayeckley

I believe that the effectiveness of what we call GP (it goes by other names outside of FRC) cannot be judged early in one's life. It's a much longer-term investment, yet offers surprisingly high returns. Just like 401(k) plans, the important thing is to keep making contributions even when it seems there's no reward for it.

Corollary - And make sure you don't invest all your 401(k) contributions in only your "employer's company" (i.e. team). Spread a decent amount of those contributions around to other "companies" you feel can yield big returns one day.

This is true on both literal and figurative levels.