Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.

[rtfgnow]

I believe they bagged up after the State Championship and then put the bag in their crate and sent it to Atlanta.

[OScubed]

I'd hazard a guess and say that with bagging over 2/3 of the FRC Finger Lakes teams would self ship. Saving shipping and Drayage costs would save FIRST and in the end FIRST teams a ton of money and I for one feel it's money better spent elsewhere. There are many ways to make Bagging pretty bulletproof - camera based evidence of proper bagging being one - it seems like a great idea waiting to be implemented.

[Joe Ross]

For those who are unaware of how it worked in Michigan, here's the Michigan rules supplement. See section 2.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by OScubed

There are many ways to make Bagging pretty bulletproof - camera based evidence of proper bagging being one - it seems like a great idea waiting to be implemented.

If it were to come to this, then integrity is lost. Not just by the few who might want to bend the rules or break the rules but by everyone. If a suspicious distrustful atmosphere is created, then a suspicious distrustful reaction will occur.

[Bharat Nain]

Well, since we can trust everyone, why even bag it? Teams who don't cheat won't cheat anyway and teams who will cheat will have an easier time doing so (and as someone pointed out, teams who want to cheat will find a way regardless). I don't think this matters to me as much since I won't have the time to work on the robot in between regionals anyway. Some of us have jobs and school, you know.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Bharat Nain

Well, since we can trust everyone, why even bag it? Teams who don't cheat won't cheat anyway and teams who will cheat will have an easier time doing so (and as someone pointed out, teams who want to cheat will find a way regardless). I don't think this matters to me as much since I won't have the time to work on the robot in between regionals anyway. Some of us have jobs and school, you know.

I can very easily see the physical barrier deterring me and reminding me it's Not Okay. As silly as it seems, if there wasn't a bag I imagine I'd be tempted to tinker / touch / fiddle with the big shiny thing in front of me. "Oh, it's just a quick measurement, that won't hurt..."

Plus the system isn't COMPLETELY breakable as it is. If you use it as intended, it prevents cheating.

[EricH]

Locks keep honest people honest. They aren't there to keep thieves out.

The bagging system is a lock. Should a team want to cheat, they'd do it anyway. I would hope, however, that all FRC teams have no desire to cheat, and therefore it's simply a reminder.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Bharat Nain

Well, since we can trust everyone, why even bag it?

I'm sorry, Bharat, I don't mean to tease or pick on you, but - ever since I read this, I pictured pieces of the robot being carried in for check-in and a nervous student saying, 'wait, there's more - they're coming, they're coming!' and more pieces of the robot trickle in. In the meantime - more teams have started stacking up in line - some with intact robots, ready to go, and others with various stages of assembled robots and their pieces waiting - patiently, or, um - not so much.

Sorry - I just can't quite get past that visual.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Zflash

With all the talk about "bagging trust" why not have teams who bag send pictures to FIRST by certain time and date that show 1. the robot in the bag 2. The zip tie close up and 3. A picture of the person who is not on the team signing the documents. Further security could be to require a member from another team to be present.

Some teams either 1) dont have access to a camera or 2) build in places where photography is restricted. As for having a member from another team present, that would work great around SE Michigan, but I imagine our friends in Australia might have an issue with that.

[Zflash]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Some teams either 1) dont have access to a camera or 2) build in places where photography is restricted. As for having a member from another team present, that would work great around SE Michigan, but I imagine our friends in Australia might have an issue with that.

1. Disposable Camera.
2. Remove robot from the premises and take a picture and bring back.
3. The program worked without the person from another team being there it was merely a suggestion. If it was required two teams could drive to a half way point and take pictures in order to participate in "bagging" instead of crating.

I just think that if MI can do it then the rest of us in the community should be able and allowed to do it. Whether there are changes made to the procedure or not.

[JohnBoucher]

You mean we won't have to sweat out ship day?

First they fix TIMS so signing in is not an all day chore, now ship day is a snap!!

All the fun of running a team is being taken away

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

You mean we won't have to sweat out ship day?

First they fix TIMS so signing in is not an all day chore, now ship day is a snap!!

All the fun of running a team is being taken away

Naah, you still have ship day, still have to meet a time limit, you just don't have the drama. MI teams reported a dejected feeling about just putting their creation in a giant baggie. Not the same thing as waving bye-bye to it as that FedEx truck turns out of the driveway.

[dtengineering]

There is something "special" about the FedEx truck showing up on ship day, but I have to think that in most cases having teams do their own shipping is not only less expensive, but will also result in a significant carbon emissions reduction.

I know our robot crate, shipped FedEx international air, often went from Vancouver to the FedEx hub (Memphis, isn't it?) and then back to Portland.

On the other hand, I really appreciated having the customs issues all dealt with in advance. I can see that bringing a robot across the border it may be necessary to open the plastic bag for the customs agent.

But really... one way or another... I'm not that worried. The people who have organized FIRST to get it to this stage aren't likely to set up a system that won't be likely to succeed fairly well. And the teams that have managed to figure out how to build a robot aren't likely to have a lot of problems figuring out a different way of getting it to and from events.

I'm also not too worried about "cheating". I have yet to meet a successful FRC team that wasn't based from the ground up on GP. No, I haven't met ALL the teams, and I'm sure that there are some amongst the 1300 that who won't succumb to temptation... I just don't think it will help them that much.

Jason

[rsisk]

OK, another question(s) about the bagging system for shipping the robot.

When you bag the robot, does that mean you are responsible for getting it all the way to the pit area?

I'm pretty sure the arenas in SoCal use union labor to move the robot from the loading dock to the pit. The teams are not allowed to make that move themselves.

So do bagged robots get delivered to the loading dock? Or to the pit? Depends on the venue? How did it work in MI?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by rsisk

OK, another question(s) about the bagging system for shipping the robot.

When you bag the robot, does that mean you are responsible for getting it all the way to the pit area?

I'm pretty sure the arenas in SoCal use union labor to move the robot from the loading dock to the pit. The teams are not allowed to make that move themselves.

So do bagged robots get delivered to the loading dock? Or to the pit? Depends on the venue? How did it work in MI?

I'm pretty sure that it's because the crates need to be moved with either a pallet jack or a forklift, which are usually operated by union employees. With a bagged robot, you don't have a crate, so you can put it on a cart and roll it in. (Also, you should have stuck around for loading the truck in L.A. this year-- at one point, a higher-up told the union guys that we didn't need their help to get the field into the truck, as there was a simple ramp and it was taking forever. They concentrated on the other truck--the show stuff--and we loaded the crates in a very short of time.)