I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!

[Arefin Bari]

The only thing I want to say to all this is ...

"FIRST isn't what it used to be anymore. It makes me upset and it makes me question many things."

[Wayne C.]

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

The only thing I want to say to all this is ...

"FIRST isn't what it used to be anymore. It makes me upset and it makes me question many things."

Ditto to that- Volunteers are people who should be treasured- not used as commodities.

When the FIRST world finally realizes they are a volunteer organization and not a mega-corporation with paid labor we will all be better off.

WC

[Tom Line]

I can understand the need to keep a list of people who are and who are not allowed to volunteer for certain duties. I think everyone who has been a member of a FIRST team can confirm that certain people simply shouldn't be doing certain jobs (even if they don't realize it).

However, the creating, maintaining, and auditing of that list is absolutely critical. Obviously it needs to be kept secret: telling a worthwhile volunteer that, for instance, they simply don't have skills to be an electrical robot inspector can be very hurtful to the individual.

Dan seems to have approached all the avenues of communication. Now, feeling that he'd run out of options, he went for the nuclear option. I can understand that and sympathize with it.

I certainly hope that Dan's airing of this 'dirty laundry' results in a positive reviewing of Michigan First policy and a formalizing of the system for 'blacklisting' people. Unfortunately, and much more commonly, an action like this results in a circling of the political wagons and the immediate commencement of damage control.

FIRST In Michigan is a new organization, and is certain to have some growing pains. So far they've done an outstanding job of laying out and trying something new: reactions have been incredibly positive. I sincerely hope they continue that postive growth by taking this as a postive cry for help that they can help to resolve.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Wayne C.

Ditto to that- Volunteers are people who should be treasured- not used as commodities.

When the FIRST world finally realizes they are a volunteer organization and not a mega-corporation with paid labor we will all be better off.

WC

I wasn't going to step in, and I still won't involve myself with any of Dan's statements, because I'm unaware of any details, BUT...

After working as an understudy to the Boston VC last year (I'll be a co-VC in '10), I just would like to say that not all VCs treat their volunteers as commodities. One very unfortunate isolated incident doesn't mean that ALL volunteers are treated as such, or that all VCs are the same. I happen to have a wonderful appreciation of the time our volunteers put in to the regional- I've been a volunteer -for FLL, FTC, FRC, FIRSTPlace, you name it- for many years myself, so I understand the commitment.

I'm sorry this happened, but I certainly hope that this doesn't scare people away from volunteering. Volunteers are the only reason FIRST events run at all. One bad apple -if that's what this is- shouldn't have to spoil the bunch.

[Wayne C.]

Originally Posted by Libby K

I wasn't going to step in, and I still won't involve myself with any of Dan's statements, because I'm unaware of any details, BUT...

After working as an understudy to the Boston VC last year (I'll be a co-VC in '10), I just would like to say that not all VCs treat their volunteers as commodities. One very unfortunate isolated incident doesn't mean that ALL volunteers are treated as such, or that all VCs are the same. I happen to have a wonderful appreciation of the time our volunteers put in to the regional- I've been a volunteer -for FLL, FTC, FRC, FIRSTPlace, you name it- for many years myself, so I understand the commitment.

I'm sorry this happened, but I certainly hope that this doesn't scare people away from volunteering. Volunteers are the only reason FIRST events run at all. One bad apple -if that's what this is- shouldn't have to spoil the bunch.

I'm glad you were treated well. All volunteers deserve that. Apparently not all have been and some have complaints. This isn't the only instance where I know of volunteers who were omitted or "black balled" for lack of cause.

FIRST IS a corporation that makes many of its decisions like a corporation with little input from the bulk of the teams. However it expects a broad base of volunteers to make the events run. Volunteer organizations run based on member councils and voting on major issues. Apparently FIRST doesn't consider itself such an organization. I hope that clarifies my statement.

I think the FIRST community at large expects way too much from the NH office- and vice versa.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Wayne C.

... FIRST IS a corporation ... However it expects a broad base of volunteers to make the events run. ... I think the FIRST community at large expects way too much from the NH office- and vice versa.

Your last sentence is definitely on point.

The FIRST office in NH does not directly organize and run the nuts and bolts of the many FRC Regions/Regionals. FRC Regional Directors and state (regional?) boards have broad semi-autonomous authority (within bounds).

For natural/understandable reasons, this organizational factoid is lost on many participants. They just think of FIRST FRC as a single monolithic organization, when it actually contains something akin to a franchise structure (not exactly, but there are similarities).

Blake
PS: With great authority comes great responsibility.
PPS: When are we going to move from discussing symptoms and consequences, to discussing root causes? to be followed by change suggestions?

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Wayne C.

I think the FIRST community at large expects way too much from the NH office- and vice versa.

Echoing Blake.....definitely on point.

Just to clarify a couple of things. FIRST is a non-profit corporation. And corporation is a legal instantiation of a non-person entity birthed by 'articles of incorporation' much the same way a person is made legal by a birth certificate, but I digress.

Most people, students, teachers, corporate mentors and the people that work at FIRST tend to gravitate to the hierarchial institutional model of how things work and how things get done.

That is a big mistake. In reality the FIRST community is more like an evangelical church. The folks at HQ guide, direct, cajole, and keep the flame but the heavy lifting is done at the regional and local level. The growth of the program is done by the technological evangelists more than by any decision made at HQ. The 1st role of the folks at FIRST is to exert leadership by reminding everyone of the goals and mission of FIRST. Their 2nd role is to coordinate and communicate.

Root Cause - Chief Delphi is full of threads of conflicts related to the misunderstanding of how FIRST really works - falsely assuming that FIRST is a traditional linear monolithic thing, it is not.

Moving to solutions - Everyone at all levels needs to understand how the FIRST community really works.

There is periodic discussion and thrashing in every organization including FIRST on the topic of creating a set of 'best practices'. Ideally there should be a set of best practices for everyone that works in the FIRST community.

Think about it. If you were Dean Kamen, or Woodie Flowers, or Bill Miller, or Paul Gudonis there really should be a book on your shelf that has your job's 'best practices'. Ditto for volunteer coordinators, mentors, students, etc, etc.

that my 2 cents at Blake's PPS.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Pavan Dave

Many mentors around my age and older, who were FIRST students and now are mentors are irritated and almost fed up with FIRST to the point where we're uninspired by FIRST now. Is the point to gain a new base but lose an old one? The point is to inspire but if the contrary, is it really worth it?

Perhaps you should consider that it is we who are changing as we experience a new viewpoint more than it is FIRST that is changing?

[Alex Cormier]

I believe the past few years and defiantly in the future you will see a lot of discussions of the future and the past. This will also bring a different breed of rookie teams. This will all be explained by one thing; the core of the upcoming teams will be people who have been brought up through the system. With any person who went through a system, when they get older, they see the picture is a lot different then before. Also, changes good or bad will always have opposition. Forums are made for one point; discussion. You may not always agree on what a certain person has posted, but the great thing about it is that you are able to not click on the thread and read it. Dan has made a bold move with putting out his thoughts. Along with what Al said, I have known Dan for a few years and he is an intelligent man and deserves to be heard as is everyone else.

[Paul Copioli]

Originally Posted by Pavan Dave View Post
Many mentors around my age and older, who were FIRST students and now are mentors are irritated and almost fed up with FIRST to the point where we're uninspired by FIRST now. Is the point to gain a new base but lose an old one? The point is to inspire but if the contrary, is it really worth it?

by Sean Lavery - Perhaps you should consider that it is we who are changing as we experience a new viewpoint more than it is FIRST that is changing?

Sean's point here right on. As a mentor for FIRST for 10 years I can honestly say that working with FIRST from a mentor's point of view has pretty much stayed the same. FIRST HQ's job is not to inspire, it's our job as a mentor. We need to shield the students on our respective teams from the political mine field that is FIRST (and any large corporation).

Remember, as a mentor, you are "they" and you are the reason the students come back. Do not think that you are supposed to be inspired by FIRST, but FIRST is to be inspired by you. FIRST is giving us the forum and it is our job to inspire.

I was never a student in FIRST, but pretty soon the majority of mentors will be former FIRST students (which will put me in the minority). I think that this year I may concentrate some of my WFA speeches at Regionals talking about how FIRST changes as you move from student to mentor as I fear Pavan Dave's sentiments are common among many former FRC students.

Anyway, remember that as mentors we have much more influence over the student experience than FIRST HQ does, hands down.

Paul

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally Posted by ebarker

If there is some sort of lost knowledge or magic from the past that FIRST possessed and doesn't today I'd like to know more about it so we can capture it for posterity.

My best guess can be summarized with this analogy: Think of a family gathering that is held every year. The few years only one family and a few friends take part. As the generations pass however, the children move away, create families of their own, and soon the small gathering has expanded into a hundred person get-together. The guests are all technically still related through the tradition, but the sheer scope that the event makes it feel different. Especially for those family members who took part in years past, this might feel like a horrible shift from the way things used to be.

This is only my second year in FIRST, so I can only speculate. Perhaps though, the lost magic is merely the fact that the "event" has become so large that much of the original "feel" might be gone. Perhaps we no longer know all the party-goers by face, or that there are some new games or foods that we really don't like. The fact remains however, it's still the same party, with the same family, and the same goal. As long as that at least remains the same, then the gathering is still the same.

[ebarker]

I think Paul and Sean nailed it on my question of "the good old days of FIRST". It took me a minute to figure it out since I'm ancient and never had the student experience.

I can easily see how a wide eyed youth can pick up a romantic view of FIRST and then later in life when they become older, more experienced, and more battle hardened become a little more cynical.

As Paul alluded to the battles that are fought in running an organization like FIRST exist in all organization, corporate, political, non-profit, military. That is part of the hard work of groups of people getting things done.

The literature is full of examples of youth entering the clergy, politics, business, education, etc with a not particularly realistic view of how things really work.

But as Paul said "they" is really "us". Paul has a real challenge explaning this in one of his speeches.

edit: As soon as I posted this and I look up at TV and there is this this special with Peter,Paul,and Mary, from the 60's. The days of the idealist poet musicians. Kinda reminded me of this discussion.

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

I also know you know some key people here in Mi... and you can regularly find Gail's phone number posted all over the place on these forums. Did you even try calling her?

Yes, I talked with the number of key people that I know in MI, who either blew me off or didn't know anything. I don't know Gail, but what I do know is that I've been trying for the past month to contact the MI board for a discussion, and was told this weekend that the MI board pretty much told me to go to hell.

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

Years ago I couldn't imagine FIRST without this board.
Today, I wonder if I should even promote this board to my kids at all.
Its a darn shame.
Maybe its time we should all get back to the basics...the joy of building something amazing with the people you care about.

When Dave started promoting CD at kickoff a few years back, I immediately knew it was a bad thing. CD has always had flareups of criticism and politics, and I knew that exposing the general FIRST public to these things without the benefit of historical context was going to lead to misunderstandings. I have never promoted the site to students because I agree with both Andy and Paul - it's our job as mentors to shelter our students from the politics that get in the way of inspiration. The part that will haunt me about blowing the whistle here is that after keeping this situation from them all year, my students are seeing this, which makes me angry that I was forced into this situation.

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

FIRST HQ's job is not to inspire, it's our job as a mentor. We need to shield the students on our respective teams from the political mine field that is FIRST (and any large corporation).

I was never a student in FIRST, but pretty soon the majority of mentors will be former FIRST students (which will put me in the minority). I think that this year I may concentrate some of my WFA speeches at Regionals talking about how FIRST changes as you move from student to mentor as I fear Pavan Dave's sentiments are common among many former FRC students.

I think Paul is one of the best people to speak to this topic, since he watched me grow from a shy high school student to an influential mentor. When I started mentoring, I was still trying to recreate that "high" I felt when I had my first "inspired" moment. It took a solid three years for me to learn that my role as a mentor needed to change and I needed to be the inspiration for the next generation of students and stop looking to recreate the "good ol' days" of being a student. I have to thank Paul for being one of the mentors that had to whack me over the head with that reality, even if it took a few whacks. I think everyone should listen to what people like Paul and Ken have to say, even if like Ken said, they don't share your point of view.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

I was forced into this situation.

You weren't forced into anything. You didn't get the job you wanted, you were offered a position that would allow you to stay involved and keep furthering the mission, and then you chose to air your dirty laundry here. I can't speak to whether your blacklisting was justified before, but by now it most certainly must be; I wouldn't want someone with such a demonstrated sense of entitlement holding a prominent position at my event.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

The part that will haunt me about blowing the whistle here is that after keeping this situation from them all year, my students are seeing this, which makes me angry that I was forced into this situation.

It was a choice that you made, Dan - you weren't forced into this, even though you apparently feel that you were.

CD is a place where opportunities to network, interact, develop, learn, share, contribute, and build community can occur. It also has much untapped potential in many areas. Yes, it started as a form of bulletin board and has quite a history of growing over the years - just as FIRST has grown and the teams have grown. But, it still has a long way to go before it has maximized its potential to impact the future in a positive, refreshing, and community-based way, alongside all of the growing pains. I'm a firm believer in that.

Jane