A Corrupt FIRST?

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by EricH

There's a spotlight from Koko Ed that says, in part, (emphasis mine)

Is there individuality? Yes. But if one member of a group is acting really badly--or really nice--that behavior reflects on the entire group if that member is showing that he or she is part of that group. Disclaimer or no, it will reflect at least to some extent. There have been times on CD that I have seen someone have to try to mend damage caused by someone else on their team, because they know that if somebody doesn't present the other side, the team will gain a reputation that they don't want to have.

Reputations, particularly team reputations, are tough to build and very easy to destroy.

When someone on a team does something wrong they don't say "Uh oh! Jimmy was rude to that judge. They say" Check out that kid on (insert team name here) acting nasty to that judge. People identify you by your affiliation first and foremost. One thing we always tell our kids if you are planning on doing something stupid while wearing our team shirt do us a favor and remove it and withdraw from the team because not only are you disrespecting our team and our long and illustrious history and the hard work of the members who worked so hard and so long to build this team's reputation but you are also disrespecting Wilson Magnet High School, Xerox Corporation, Rochester, New York and own family and friends.
So if you are going to pop off about something as volatile as this make sure you have your facts straight so you are not just sullying more than just your own reputation.

[czeke]

I seem to recall, several years ago, at the Wisconsin Regional, there was a team from Muskegon, here, and they barely had enough mouney to pay for their entry fee, much less for transportation and hotel. Their team was small, say abour 6 or 8 students. I spoke to their adult coach, and he told me that they couldn't generate enough local, financial support, for the team. I'm not certain, if this was your team, or not, or even if they survived to compete again. It's very unfortunate, when you can't even get minimum financial support ( or even volunteer mentor support ) for your team. I know the old adage, " If you can move, you can compete ", but as we all know, if all you can do, " is move " you'll be competing to stay out of last place.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by the man

Ok so trying to start a team back up 7 or 8 days before kick off is not what i started this thread for, nor do i desire to attempt this.

Which is perfectly reasonable.

However the people here are providing these suggestions because we very strongly believe in this program and do not want to see teams disbanding. We do all we can to help keep teams together. Though you may need this year to get back on your feet, having your team back together for next year is a perfectly reasonable goal.

As Keehun and a few others have stated, we may actually have something to gain by examining FIRST's financial records. Financial information is very relevant to teams, especially with the economy going the way it has been. However, I (and it seems a number of others here) believe that the root of the problem is not what FIRST is doing with the money, but your team's sustainability.

[Tom Ore]

Jacob, posts like these, e-mails, etc. often come across sounding more harsh than was actually intended. I'll give you the benefit of doubt that you didn't really mean to sound the way we took it.

I'm guessing you were looking for some ideas on how to proceed but the negative tone of your post got in the way.

One thought I had - I have no idea if this is possible or not - is to follow the FRC season in unofficially. Build a robot that is designed for the game but don't register and don't attend any regionals. Maybe you can find off-season events to compete in.

[the man]

I really just want to know where the money actually goes. I want to know what the kit cost, where first spends its money, and who gives money to first. Such a lego.

[keehun]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

YES.

By affiliating yourself with a team, you are representing them at all times, as you are a member and part of that team. You can't quit your team to say something, then join back on it. The words are tied to you, and you're tying yourself to your team.

If you have ideas you don't want to be affiliated with your team, either don't say them or don't be on that team. You are a constant representative of your team.

Chris, that's a little outlandish.

Given, he did not put a disclaimer that none of his views are associated with his team, but I think we can let that one go.

A lot of the things I put on here are my personal views and not necessarily of my team. I don't confer with my team mentors about everything I put on here. (Probably close to none, if not a post-fact discussion)

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by the man

I have begun to notice some corruption in the FIRST organization.

Please no negative comments or unsupported "Facts".

a) Your lack of "understanding" of how the expense structure works does NOT equate to corruption, merely your lack of corruption.

b) If there is any corruption here it is a moral corruption on your part to do due diligence research before filing libelous claims, without "Facts" in hand.

There are many threads on CD about this subject. It has been covered before. And there are more threads about the "cost" versus the "value" of the program. There is a thread that was done nearly a year ago on this very subject.

Have you read the financial statements of FIRST ? Do you know how the read statement ? Do you know how to create a costed BOM ? Do you understand the difference between cost and value.

Professor Charles W. Kingsfield Jr. would be "delighted" to have you in his class !!

A libelous bomb is thrown into the middle of CD and you then ask for no "negative comments".

I'm stunned...

[the man]

Originally Posted by keehun

Chris, that's a little outlandish.

Given, he did not put a disclaimer that none of his views are associated with his team, but I think we can let that one go.

There actually was a disclaimer. First post.

[Andy Grady]

In response to this and every other thread similar to this one in existence, you do not realize how good you have it. Let me put a few things in perspective for you, from someone who has been in this thing for 17 years.

When I was a student...

1. The kit of parts was heavily limited. You could only use parts available from the kit itself, or Small Parts Inc.

2. THERE WAS NO FTC OR FLL

3. For the first year, there was no music playing, no lights, nothing but a large projector screen with a clock.

4. There were no resources available to buy gearbox assemblies, omni wheels, etc...

5. The control system wasn't nearly as sophisticated as it is now.

6. The playing field was not standardized for ease of use from year to year.

7. There was no NASA grant. There was hardly any grants at all...which means teams had to find money the hard way, and if you think finding money is hard now, you should have seen it back then!

8. The championship was not held in a massive sports dome.

9. There was only 1 regional my first year involved...before that, there were no regionals and championships was held at a high school gym!

In essence, FIRST has grown from a small, highly restricted competition held in a high school gymnasium, to a major event held in arenas, convention centers, and ultimately a massive sports dome. The materials you can use are so wide open that you have endless creativity compared to what I had as a student. Sensors, cameras, C programing language, wifi gaming adapters...we had NONE of that. We built robots out of plywood and PVC, threw wheels on it, and drove it around a field that was half the size that you have now.

FIRST has worked hard from year one to find ways to make this program better and better for those who are involved. For all those special things that
you see at a competition these days, for the Kitbots you are handed every year (WE HAD TO BUILD EVERY DRIVE TRAIN!!!!!), for each and every upgrade that is revealed, for each game you see unveiled before your eyes, you need one thing...MONEY. Yes...FIRST is expensive and for good reason. Unless you want to see Einstein held back at the Memorial High School Gym in Manchester every year, you are going to have to shell out some cash. I live in an area so saturated by FIRST teams, that we are literally running out of companies to sponsor us. The fact of the matter is, we find a way to get the money. We have been finding a way to get money for twenty years. There are tons of grants, tons of companies willing to donate money, space, or otherwise, and tons of different fundraising methods you can use.

In short...where the money goes is right in front of your eyes, and you just don't see it. I suggest instead of complaining about what FIRST does right or what FIRST does wrong in its own business model, that you go out and take a proactive stance in trying to fund your team. If you don't like the rules that FIRST gives or don't like spending the money, I assure you that there are alternatives out there. Go find them. Otherwise...suck it up!

Just my opinion.

[iblis432]

I did not wish to get into this discussion, but I do have one thing to say. If he did indeed say something that negatively reflects his team, making negative comments about the fact that he did that does not positively show your team as well. Please be careful that when explaining how to 'best represent your team', you do the same. We should not be rude to the original poster just because he was rude to us, although I am not saying that he was.

[artdutra04]

Your team has difficulty raising money to compete in FRC, so your reaction is to project these shortcomings onto a third-party by making baseless/libelous accusations about them on a public forum?

Creating a sustainable FRC program is a long, time-consuming process that isn't necessarily guaranteed to succeed. Sometimes for various reasons, the critical mass of resources does not exist to create a sustainable FRC team. That's why FTC and VRC (and many other low-cost robotics competitions) were created. If you still want to be involved with FRC, build a FRC robot anyway and only compete at off-season events, merge with another team, volunteer at events, or follow the universal advice for nearly everything in life: stop whining about something that can be solved by working harder.

[the man]

Originally Posted by ebarker

a) Your lack of "understanding" of how the expense structure works does NOT equate to corruption, merely your lack of corruption.

b) If there is any corruption here it is a moral corruption on your part to do due diligence research before filing libelous claims, without "Facts" in hand.

There are many threads on CD about this subject. It has been covered before. And there are more threads about the "cost" versus the "value" of the program. There is a thread that was done nearly a year ago on this very subject.

Have you read the financial statements of FIRST ? Do you know how the read statement ? Do you know how to create a costed BOM ? Do you understand the difference between cost and value.

Professor Charles W. Kingsfield Jr. would be "delighted" to have you in his class !!

A libelous bomb is thrown into the middle of CD and you then ask for no "negative comments".

I'm stunned...

This, once again, is not an accusation, mealy a thought an idea something to consider.Don't throw out an idea simply because you don't agree. I looked a the financial report and I don't understand it and i'm sure very few people do.
I'm sure somethings can easily be explained and i'm sure i'm wrong about somethings but what if there is something here that needs to be looked at. Should it be overlooked because its an unpopular idea?

If you think its a libelous claim then sue me.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by the man

If you think its a libelous claim then sue me.

I'm sure if FIRST thinks it's warranted FIRST will.
Hopefully, for your sake, FIRST won't think it's worth their time.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by iblis432

We should not be rude to the original poster just because he was rude to us, although I am not saying that he was.

The original post wasn't "rude", it was "libelous".

There is a world of difference. Making libelous accusations because of

a) you don't agree with the price of the product you are buying, or
b) you don't have the business plan to allow your team to participate

isn't too smart for a hundred reasons..

It isn't a matter of 'manners', it is a matter of 'judgement'.

Along with having good manners, having good judgement goes a long way in life.

[the man]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I'm sure if FIRST thinks it's warranted FIRST will.
Hopefully, for your sake, FIRST won't think it's worth their time.

I invite them to try.