Mini Bot - displeasure

[artdutra04]

I really do not like the adjustment of the Minibot rules in Team Update #1. Honestly, just when I thought FIRST had finally created an FRC game without any near universally-hated rules, they went ahead and made one in TM 1.

We were an early adopter of the FIRST Vex Challenge, and subsequently bought a lot of Vex parts. When FIRST pulled the rug out from underneath us and switched from Vex to Tetrix, we stayed with our investment and stopped competing in the then renamed FTC and started doing VRC. There was no reason to drop our large-investment in Vex to stick with the FIRST brand name. If FIRST hadn't dropped Vex, our team would definitely still be involved with FVC/FTC, and I'm sure they wouldn't be having any issues trying to grow the program.

We were planning on using a stored-energy (via surgical tubing) Minibot launcher to avoid having to buy any FTC parts other than those we got from FIRST Choice. We even started prototyping ideas, and our first prototype showed much promise with times faster than the theoretical minimum time for ascent powered by FTC motors. Then TM #1 ruins all of that, and forces a large unplanned expense onto our build season (We have the budget to absorb it, but are still irate we're being coerced to buy something that otherwise is not needed for our goals of inspiring students).

And as a result of this update forcing all Minibots to be propelled exactly the same (good bye innovative ideas and inspiration, hello clone bots), I expect ~90% of Minibot teams to reach the trigger within 0.25 sec of each other. Now the Minibot bonuses will literally be decided each match by statistical luck more than anything else.

[smistthegreat]

The minibot component is almost completely taken out of the minibot race, it becomes a race of who can deploy their minibot faster. Which I'm sure is not what FIRST intended.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

I really do not like the adjustment of the Minibot rules in Team Update #1. Honestly, just when I thought FIRST had finally created an FRC game without any near universally-hated rules, they went ahead and made one in TM 1.

[snip]

And as a result of this update forcing all Minibots to be propelled exactly the same (good bye innovative ideas and inspiration, hello clone bots), I expect ~90% of Minibot teams to reach the trigger within 0.25 sec of each other. Now the Minibot bonuses will literally be decided each match by statistical luck more than anything else.

This exactly. I was very much looking forward to all the neat methods of mechanical energy storage teams were going to use to power their minibots.

It seems like a little bit of a snub to not allow Tetrix components, but I suppose I understand the logic. Either you use their components, or you build your own. Requiring teams to use the the FTC controllers and not providing them to every team seems rather silly to me...

(This is the case correct -- every team is not guaranteed the FTC stuff with their kit?)

The real question is, just how many VEX stickers will Team IFI plaster on their Tetrix minibots?

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

I can tell you here in Canada there are many times more VEX teams then FTC teams...

And... When you add the number of VRC team students to the number of FTC team students, you (not surprisingly) find that together they are inspiring a population of students larger than either inspires alone.

Originally Posted by iCurtis

The real question is, just how many VEX stickers will Team IFI plaster on their Tetrix minibots?

Big Grin!

[Stephen of REX]

Oh how I wish that FTC used Vex instead of Tetrix. 1727 has a strong thriving Vex program and has even integrated Vex into our school system's curriculum, and host Vex tournaments regularly, but we get virtually no recognition for this because it is Vex and not FTC. If the minibot could use Vex pieces we would be done in a snap.

[Justin Stiltner]

I am not sure that everyone has the proper perspective on this. The only Tetrix parts that are required are the battery (this has a 20A fuse in line) and the up to two motors. From team update #1 the allowable aluminum parts are:
Sheet
90 degree angle
U channel
Tube
Bar

So you are not forced to use the tetrix metal parts.

Further you are allowed Polycarbonate, and any mechanical hardware you wish.
so in the building materials respect the project is very similar to the way FRC was before about 2002.


As for the innovation part of things, I see this like a race where every car has the same engine. You have a maximum amount of power available to you, just like all the others. However the chassis you put it in is up to you. Personally I think you will see a big difference between the teams that just build a mini bot with the tetrix system, and ones that do a lot of engineering on their mini bot.
By a lot of engineering I mean using materials in a smart manner, using the design software given to the teams to lighten the bot. Choosing proper gear ratios to draw the maximum power from the motors as the robot climbs.

I foresee the fastest bot being only the two motors, the battery, and a polycarbonate frame with custom polycarbonate gears and shafts that uses the household light switches for motor control.

Think of this as an opportunity to show the students more involved engineering skills such as FEA and design optimization.

[E2207]

Originally Posted by Justin Stiltner

I am not sure that everyone has the proper perspective on this. The only Tetrix parts that are required are the battery (this has a 20A fuse in line) and the up to two motors. From team update #1 the allowable aluminum parts are:
Sheet
90 degree angle
U channel
Tube
Bar

So you are not forced to use the tetrix metal parts.

Further you are allowed Polycarbonate, and any mechanical hardware you wish.
so in the building materials respect the project is very similar to the way FRC was before about 2002.


As for the innovation part of things, I see this like a race where every car has the same engine. You have a maximum amount of power available to you, just like all the others. However the chassis you put it in is up to you. Personally I think you will see a big difference between the teams that just build a mini bot with the tetrix system, and ones that do a lot of engineering on their mini bot.
By a lot of engineering I mean using materials in a smart manner, using the design software given to the teams to lighten the bot. Choosing proper gear ratios to draw the maximum power from the motors as the robot climbs.

I foresee the fastest bot being only the two motors, the battery, and a polycarbonate frame with custom polycarbonate gears and shafts that uses the household light switches for motor control.

Think of this as an opportunity to show the students more involved engineering skills such as FEA and design optimization.

Is it allowed to use a belt drive on the minibot?

[Justin Stiltner]

All parts on the mini bot must either be a tetrix part, the NXT brick, or made from materials on the list for the mini bot. You could take surgical tubing and make a belt, and make some pulleys to use it with, it would then be legal.

Or you could potentially use this
http://shop.pitsco.com/store/detail....23&c=1&t=0&l=0

as it is a tetrix part.
For official word however you should use the Q&A forums on usfirst.org

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by E2207

Is it allowed to use a belt drive on the minibot?

I would say to use chain instead... but seeing as Tetrix is charging $80 for what is essentially a little bit of 25 series chain, I would see what you could do with the gears they give you and hope that somehow we don't have to throw away our budgets on "special" chain.

[JohnHorton]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

This exactly. I was very much looking forward to all the neat methods of mechanical energy storage teams were going to use to power their minibots.

I agree. I was really hoping to see some new and interesting methods of doing this. People with flywheels, surgical tube energy storage, etc.
It reminded me of that scene in Apollo 13, where they needed to fit a square CO2 scrubber into a round hole, they dumped out a bag of parts on the table and said "This is what we have. Build something.".
That'd be the true spirit of FIRST, not this.

Originally Posted by iCurtis

The real question is, just how many VEX stickers will Team IFI plaster on their Tetrix minibots?

I think we'll do the same at 1100

[mechE131]

Originally Posted by JohnHorton

It reminded me of that scene in Apollo 13, where they needed to fit a square CO2 scrubber into a round hole, they dumped out a bag of parts on the table and said "This is what we have. Build something.".
That'd be the true spirit of FIRST, not this.

Indeed, it was the first thing that popped into my head as well. And I believe the entire structure of the minibot aspect of the game is the true spirit of FIRST.

[M80]

Does anyone know if we absolutely have to use the NXT controller because it sounds pretty optional

[JohnHorton]

Originally Posted by M80

Does anyone know if we absolutely have to use the NXT controller because it sounds pretty optional

It is optional, so far.

[GW Kalrod]

Originally Posted by JohnHorton

It is optional, so far.

The whole lightswitch thing makes it seem unlikely the NXT block will be required...

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by GW Kalrod

The whole lightswitch thing makes it seem unlikely the NXT block will be required...

Originally Posted by JohnHorton

It is optional, so far.

Originally Posted by M80

Does anyone know if we absolutely have to use the NXT controller because it sounds pretty optional

I posted a question on the Q&A forum today asking this exact question.

We should have the official answer in a couple days.