Image Discuss: 810 - Minotaur: Coming to a regional near you.

[Madison]

Originally posted by jburstein
Your robot suffers from the WORST case of "engineer takeover" I have ever seen. It's a very cool robot, but it's just to bad that the stundents didn't have a hand in designing/building it.

I'll be sure to pass your insightful comments along to the two engineers who had nothing to do with the design of this robot. That's especially remarkable, too, seeing as we have only two engineers that have any involvement in our team.

Don't open your mouth when you clearly know nothing. It makes you, and your team, look exceptionally stupid. Don't judge my team, either. I take it personally.

If you'd like to pursue this further, you can send me a PM. Otherwise, please be quiet. Thanks.

[chellyzee93]

*jaw drops*

[Ian W.]

Originally posted by jburstein
Your robot suffers from the WORST case of "engineer takeover" I have ever seen. It's a very cool robot, but it's just to bad that the stundents didn't have a hand in designing/building it.

um, yeah, right.

i'm one of the "core-students" on 810. we have M. Krass, a college student/engineer, who design the robot, two machine shops who have CNC mills/lathes/benders/etc, a company who provides us with an engineer or two, and a student on the team has a small machine shop in his basement. we also have an electrical engineer, his wife who is a computer scientist, and several parents who help whenever they can.

the students have built most, if not all of that machine. sure, the engineers help, they make tons of stuff for us. but in no way, shape, or form have the engineers taken over.

i take it as an insult, for you to just look and say "engineer takeover" because it is implying that me, and my team, are incapable as high school students alone, to make such a robot. if your team is this way, well, i feel sorry for you, and you should work on fixing this. my team is a combination of high school students and engineers, working together, key word here, to make a robot.

FYI: i'm a programmer for the team, no one engineer knows programming. how is that engineer takeover? without me and the other programmers, all students, that robot wouldn't work, no matter how hard the engineers jumped up and down.

i don't see a picture of other teams' robots and say "engineer takeover." sure, there's teams that do nothing while the engineers do everything. we're not one of them.

i notice you're in palo alto, i believe that's in CA if i'm correct. 810 will be at the SVR regional, so if you feel so inclined to insult my team, maybe you can stop by our pits, and we can show you how the students work, build, and know the robot like the back of their hands. if you can say the same about your team's students, great, but it doesn't give you the right to go forth and bash other teams, that are ACROSS THE COUNTRY from you, without knowing a single thing about them, except that they built an exceptionally professional looking robot (and that is inferred from your comment of "engineer takeover," because if they took it over, they'd make it look professional, right?).

[Melissa Nute]

Originally posted by jburstein
Your robot suffers from the WORST case of "engineer takeover" I have ever seen. It's a very cool robot, but it's just to bad that the stundents didn't have a hand in designing/building it.

/me stands stunned...

Why would some one claim they know something when they dont...

[Madison]

Originally posted by Stud Man Dan
Looks amazing, really cool, do y ou guys fold up to go under the bar by ne chance?

what do you plan on doing if your up against a rampdom bot?

The robot, as it exists right now, cannot go under the barrier.

It was designed to do something a bit better than that, but, unfortunately, we ran out of time to really get the assurance we need to label it a feature.

In either case, we are working at solving our reliability issues where that is concerned, as well as developing a contingency retrofit that may be better suited toward effectively competing in a game that plays out like we've been seeing in scrimmages.

Stay tuned for details. Maybe.

[joe gem]

Originally posted by jburstein
Your robot suffers from the WORST case of "engineer takeover" I have ever seen. It's a very cool robot, but it's just to bad that the stundents didn't have a hand in designing/building it.

i go wit ian w. u have no write to criticize my team
is there any reason to do that?
i cant think of one
this robot took me and the rest of my team many "man" hours to build. we would stay up at the school until 11:30+ at night.
i know almost everything about that robot. and so does most of the other team members on the team
so i still cant think of any reason to say that about my team.

[jburstein]

perhaps I am wrong, and if so I apologize, but I believe 810 was the team last year that had a I saw with 4 middle-aged balding guys all by themselves repairing the robot at nationals last year. The huge amount of machining has gone into your robot suggests that adults were heavily involved in building the bot.

I hear the protest from every team "but we know the robot like the back of our hand!!" That may be so, and I don't know what your team is like, but on my team any student who had a hand in building the robot could fix any mechanical system robot given a reasonable amount of time and appropriate tools. Most of us could fix electrical malfunctions as well.

I suspect that such is not quite the case on your team. And yes we will be at SVR and you're welcome to come by our pit and check out the robot that no one over the age of 19 touched from the day the materials were bought to the day it went into the crate (yes i'm sure it's hyperbole- our janitor probably pushed it aside, and our teacher helped us carry it to practice, but the point is that no adult built/designed anything for us).

Sorry if I offend, but each year our student built robot does very well at SVR, only to be taken down in quarter or semi-finals by robots that were built by engineers. Eventually you get kinda frustrated about that, y'know what i mean?

[soezgg]

just so you know...those 4 middle aged balding guys were all students...maddie, ian, john and dave

they did a $@#$@#$@#$@# good job even though they beat up our team.

[jburstein]

these guys were CLEARLY not students- but as i said it was last year, so may have the wrong team...

[Cory]

wow, I am stunned. How can you make such claims without even knowing what goes on? I know a few of 810's team members quite well, and I can say that from what Ive seen, they are very very involved in their robot. Do I sense a bit of jealousy that your team has no engineers working to your teams advantage? It makes no sense to be proud of never having an engineer help you. Try it, your bot will be better. We pride ourselves on being student run and student built, but guess what? We have 3 engineers that help us, and without them, we would be nowhere near where we are now. Just because a teams robot looks nice, it doesnt mean it was made by engineers. Even if it was made by engineers, yes it is unfair, but the point of FIRST isnt winning, or losing, its what you get out of it. If you are on a team that is totally dominated by engineers, but you have the greatest experience in the world, thats great. Similarly, if you are on a student dominated team, but you have a bad experience, then it sucks.

In conclusion, dont bash on teams you know nothing about... because we all know you don't.

Cory

[Madison]

I kindly asked that if you had any further baseless accusations to make, you do so through a Private Message to myself or any of my team members. Your inability to grant such a small request is noted. Or, perhaps it suggests that you did not even read what we've written.

Originally posted by jburstein
perhaps I am wrong, and if so I apologize, but I believe 810 was the team last year that had a I saw with 4 middle-aged balding guys all by themselves repairing the robot at nationals last year.

Maybe we were blessed, but there wasn't a single balding guy on our team last season. What few repairs we needed to do were tended to by the students or, in one instance, myself. Furthermore, to use something as insignificant as that to make such wildly incorrect assumptions about our team and to go so far as to post them in this public forum is ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself.

The huge amount of machining has gone into your robot suggests that adults were heavily involved in building the bot.

Pictures can be quite deceiving, then. We are lucky enough to have the support of two very well equipped machine shops, with a combined total of nearly 20 CNC mills. These are businesses and are operated by adults. But, if you're familiar with CNC machining, you'll realize that relatively little 'work' goes into producing a part. The machines are programmed in code generated from drawings our students produced. When the parts were finished, the students assembled them, made necessary changes, and addressed problems as they arose.

I hear the protest from every team "but we know the robot like the back of our hand!!" That may be so, and I don't know what your team is like, but on my team any student who had a hand in building the robot could fix any mechanical system robot given a reasonable amount of time and appropriate tools. Most of us could fix electrical malfunctions as well.

If you're going to draw judgement after looking at only one source, please take me as an example. By my behavior on these forums, you can very safely assume that I do not train my students as Pavlovian Dogs, and they're not conditioned to respond with, "but we know the robot like the back of our hand." While there weren't as many students actively interested in completing our robot this season as I would have liked, each of those students who made a commitment to completing this machine is well versed in its design and function. They can not only repair it, but explain the concepts that drive its design.

Moreso, if your assertion that simply any student with enough time and the right tools could fix the robots, I don't understand what benefit you'd see in their designing anything.

I suspect that such is not quite the case on your team.

Your suspicion is based on nothing but hollow conclusions you've drawn from your own misconceptions.

And yes we will be at SVR and you're welcome to come by our pit and check out the robot that no one over the age of 19 touched from the day the materials were bought to the day it went into the crate (yes i'm sure it's hyperbole- our janitor probably pushed it aside, and our teacher helped us carry it to practice, but the point is that no adult built/designed anything for us).

Likewise, you're welcome to visit us at our pit and see what your students are capable of accomplishing. Just because a team is student run and may not have the aid of professionals does not give them license nor excuse to produce something less than a professional product. My students are very proud of this accomplishment, they consider it their own, and they have lost nothing by having the guiding hand of engineers, machinists, parents, and mentors involved in this process. While your students may have earned the satisfaction of nursing a project from concept to completion in a totally isolated environment, my students have learned what it is like to function in a professional environment. They have worked concurrently with other professionals to complete their project.

How dare you try to degrade their achievement, their effort, and my commitment to inspiring these kids in the best ways I know how by making horribly unfounded, incorrect, and childish accusations about our team, its members, and its processes.

Sorry if I offend, but each year our student built robot does very well at SVR, only to be taken down in quarter or semi-finals by robots that were built by engineers. Eventually you get kinda frustrated about that, y'know what i mean? [/b]

No, frankly, I have no idea. Winning doesn't concern most of my team in the least. Our experience has already been amazing.

Once again, I'll ask that if you feel the compulsion to further pursue this, do so via PM. I've cleaned out my mailbox some, in the event that I could not receive any more messages. Do me a favor, though, and stop publicly defaming our achievement with the hope of overcoming your own insecurity.

See you at SVR. Good luck.

[Ian W.]

Originally posted by jburstein
perhaps I am wrong, and if so I apologize, but I believe 810 was the team last year that had a I saw with 4 middle-aged balding guys all by themselves repairing the robot at nationals last year. The huge amount of machining has gone into your robot suggests that adults were heavily involved in building the bot.

I hear the protest from every team "but we know the robot like the back of our hand!!" That may be so, and I don't know what your team is like, but on my team any student who had a hand in building the robot could fix any mechanical system robot given a reasonable amount of time and appropriate tools. Most of us could fix electrical malfunctions as well.

I suspect that such is not quite the case on your team. And yes we will be at SVR and you're welcome to come by our pit and check out the robot that no one over the age of 19 touched from the day the materials were bought to the day it went into the crate (yes i'm sure it's hyperbole- our janitor probably pushed it aside, and our teacher helped us carry it to practice, but the point is that no adult built/designed anything for us).

Sorry if I offend, but each year our student built robot does very well at SVR, only to be taken down in quarter or semi-finals by robots that were built by engineers. Eventually you get kinda frustrated about that, y'know what i mean?

Once again, as a student member of Team 810, I take offense to your post. As M. Krass has said, we had not one "middle-aged balding guy" on team last year at Nationals. You obviously saw another team, or are coming up with extremely poor "excuses" to your contentions, which have already been proved false. In any case, if there were four men working on our robot, what would it matter? We have several teachers and engineers on Team 810 who value the robot just as much as the students, because they put just as much, if not more, time and effort into making it work. They have every right to work on it, as far as I'm concerned.

Regarding the repairs of any system on the robot. I'm a programmer and "electrician." I can fix any problem, from bugs in the program, to rewiring frayed wires, with no problems. I also know exactly how the pneumatic system works, after an engineer explained a few things about the solenoids to me. I know how the transmission works, I know how the motors are geared, I know how the chains bring power to the wheels. I can fix any system on my robot, albeit not easily, but I can fix any system, by myself. Of course, I'd need the right tools, and considering we put the robot together with nothing more than wrenches, a few hammers, screw drivers, chain puller/breaker, and various cutting tools, there's not much I need to fix my robot. The rest of my team, the students that are committed at least, have the same degree of knowledge of all of the parts, except maybe the electrical system. This year, our electronics are much more complicated and organized than last year, but since we have all the sheets that detail how it works, I'm sure they could figure it out no problem if me or someone else not knowledgeable in the electronics wasn't there.

You suspect that Team 810 can't fix stuff by our selfs (I'm guessing this means that the engineers and teachers aren't part of the team). Well, if the above paragraph doesn't settle things for you, maybe you can drop by our pits, and me and the other students can show you what we know. Remember, you're the one who doesn't believe me and needs the proving, hence I invited you to come. I want to say I believe you that no one over the age of 19 has touched your robot, but because you can't come up with valid information on my team, and instead resort to unfounded claims, I find it hard to believe anything I see from you.

Sorry if you offended me? Hmm, I don't quite think that cuts it, after you went and told the world that you think that the students (which includes me) of Team 810 are a bunch of incompetent morons incapable of building a professional looking robot from scratch. I don't see how you could be so insensitive as to make such an outrageous claim, knowing nothing about my team. It almost brings me to tears, because of the blatant lack of "Gracious Professionalism" which is so deeply ingrained in the spirit of FIRST, or so I thought.

As M. Krass stated, I know that I, as a student of Team 810, do not really care about winning. Sure, I'd love to come in first place all the time, but it's not something I need to be happy. I'm happy if the robot that I helped to build works. Anything else shows that my team did an exceptionally good job, and that know what we're doing. As a driver, I know what it's like to win, I also know what it's like when the robot breaks, and you know exactly why, and you loose. Don't lecture me on how you were unhappy that other teams did better because they were built by engineers. Last year, Team 810, as a rookie team, managed to get into the quarter finals at the NYC regional. Have you seen our robot from last year? It's a sad sight, I must say. You know how we did so well? Teamwork, teamwork, and, GASP!, teamwork. Everyone worked together for a common goal, trying to win, and we almost made it. We were taken down in the end because we were not able to come up with an effective strategy to beat 358 (Hauppage, a team that helped us last year) and I believe T.R.I.B.E.S. We were the powerhouse robot on our alliance, and we did the best we could, but lost, and you know what, no one cared because we were happy that we got that far.

As M. Krass says, if you feel the need to bash me and my team anymore than you already have, please do so through Private Messages, AIM, or email. My screen name and email address is right below, if you feel the need to continue this, please contact me through one of those channels.

Going back to the topic at hand, does anyone have any comments, suggestions, or questions regarding our robot?

[DaBruteForceGuy]

I have stayed quite too long.... I am the chief student enjineer and a very commited student on 810....I feel no need to defend our robot. The work and hardship that i put into this machine cannot be argued through words and a picture. When i break my back working on a machine for six weeks straight i am not thinking about what people are going to say about the bot.....what i can't wait to see is seeing the expression on their face when we wow them....... That is my compensation
+++Though, awards are definitly a plus

[Rook]

Good job 810. Both in your robot and your mature attitude on these boards.

[joe gem]

Originally posted by DaBruteForceGuy
I have stayed quite too long.... I am the chief student enjineer and a very commited student on 810....I feel no need to defend our robot. The work and hardship that i put into this machine cannot be argued through words and a picture. When i break my back working on a machine for six weeks straight i am not thinking about what people are going to say about the bot.....what i can't wait to see is seeing the expression on their face when we wow them....... That is my compensation
+++Though, awards are definitly a plus

dabrutforceguy
my team and all the other teams out there shouldnt take any bad $@$#$$@$@ stuff from anyone
we should jus look at all the hard work and long nites it took to make such a wonderful piece of work
yes our robot has gone under the bit of many cnc mills befor but if u take a closer look at the bot u will c wat i and the other more committed students went through to build it
this robot has been my life for 6 weeks. its all i ever talked about with my family and friends and then i have someone who knows absolutely nothing about my team or the work that went into making the bot go and put it down like that
if u havent noticed already i m one of the more committed students on my team. yes i am a "freshy" but i put in more work and time into this bot then most of the seniors and older team members
i broke my bak for 6 weeks every day trying to build this bot and i really dont appreciate wat u have said about it
if u want to argue about this beautiful machine then pm me and i will talk about it wit u
thank u
i personally wont be at the SRV regional but i will b happy anyway b/c i will know that the bot that worked on for such a long time works and moves in a game situation. and that is all that matters.
thank u again
joe
o- jus b/c winning isnt everything it doesnt mean that my team doesnt want a trofy or two

[ggoldman]

I just want to commend 810 on an amazing looking bot.

I was a designer on team 384 for the past three years (now i am in college and still mentoring) and I can for one say that a capable student can do just as much..if not more.. work on a robot than an engineer or mentor.

When i was head of design team my junior and senior years, I spent every waking hour working on the plans for our robot. Hour after hour i would deign subsystems, make drill holes...and only because it is something I loved doing.

I guess my basic point is that you guys on 810 have a lot of pride in your robot and that is something that can not be broken by rude or obscene criticism.

On a side note... what program did you guys use to design in..Personally, I used Inventor for the past two years.

Once again awesome lookin bot...can't wait to see it perform.

Gabe Goldman
Mentor on team 384
Engineering Student at VCU
VCU ASME FIRST Student Coordinator

[seanwitte]

This is my first year as a volunteer for Team 116, but I'm only involved in the programming and electonics subteams. I was wondering how smooth the transition was from the drawings to the milled parts to the assembled robot. Did you just deliver the files and pick up the finished parts? Very impressive looking robot, well done.

[joe gem]

Originally posted by seanwitte
This is my first year as a volunteer for Team 116, but I'm only involved in the programming and electonics subteams. I was wondering how smooth the transition was from the drawings to the milled parts to the assembled robot. Did you just deliver the files and pick up the finished parts? Very impressive looking robot, well done.

wat do u mean
well once we gave the program to the miller he put the program into the cnc(witch he said was the longest pat in the hole doing he said it took him 8 hours to put the program of the largest piece we gave him into the cnc) then like 2 days or less later we would get the finished piece. on one or two parts we had to give them bak to the miller to tweek. but nothing substantial.

[Keith Chester]

It's a great looking bot, but I want to see it in action! I can't wait until Annapolis. I hope you guys will give me the grand tour of the machine

[DanL]

I found some pictures taken various times during the build season. Let me show you our great "engineering takeover." I tried to keep these pics to a minimum size so they load fast.



The season began with the students dividing into groups and coming up with different ideas for the robot out of cardboard. As the design materialized, notes were taken and sketched about the various components to be designed.



We worked on the CAD in our classroom. We loaded our Inventor on our laptop, and other people on the team brought their own laptops to work on from home. While one person designed one thing, the other did some dimensioning. With the funds left over from last year, we were able to buy our own brand new P4 laptop.



For the new people, we laid the motors out on a piece of plywood, attached some PWMs and the control system, and showed people how those all work. Last year I was completely clueless about what a PWM did, how it did it, and why it modulates the pulse - this year I was teaching the new kids about 'em.



As the major fundraiser, we made a deal with a local Mercedes dealer to raffle off a Mercedes that was given to us at a significant discount. The way it worked is all the students sold $50 tickets to parents, co-workers, family, local businesses, neighbors, etc. The grandprize winner had the option of taking either the car or half the money that was raised. In this case, the grandprize winner opted for the money. This is a picture of us awarding a check for $13,400. If that's half the money we raised, that means we raised $23,800 with this raffle. At $50 a ticket, well you do the math and see how many tickets we as a team sold.