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Unread 10-09-2018, 02:31 PM
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Defining Competitive in FRC

Just something I've been thinking about as I gear up for the 2019 season with my current team.

As far as on-field performances go - what do you define as "competitive?"

There have been similar threads in the past, but prior to districts, new kitbots, VEXpro and other vendors, etc.

What do you consider "competitive" for your team? (not as a generalization for all FRC teams)
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Unread 10-09-2018, 02:37 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

After the 2017 season, 4513 agreed that by far DCMP was where the real competition is.

CMP divisions are just bigger district events tbh.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi View Post
Brennon kind of hit my question for me. There's ways to define your goals and ways to define what you consider competitive by your standards.

For example, if you don't make elims, but you played each match and executed the strategy you chose pretty well, do you think that's competitive? Or, do you think you achieved your goal but weren't competitive because you did not make elims.
Coming back after class to edit this to better answer the underlying question. When I graduated, The goals were to win an event and go back to worlds. Seeing as how they've managed that and more, id assume their aspirations have only gotten higher.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 02:40 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

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Originally Posted by MikLast View Post
After the 2017 season, 4513 agreed that by far DCMP was where the real competition is.

CMP divisions are just bigger district events tbh.
NEDCMP was way more competitive than some districts at worlds. Some of that is because New England has gotten to be so strong recently but it is also due to District champs weeding out some of the lower quality teams.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 02:40 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

I think of matches/events as competitive when teams/robots are on a similar level to one another where execution and strategy are more important to determining the outcome of a match/event.

What are your thoughts? I'm not sure what you are trying to gain insight into.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 02:41 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

I think there's a difference between "competitive" and "goals." For example, a goal I have for 6844 is playing in eliminations. For other teams, that might be winning a safety award, an offseason, a DCMP, or entering the Hall of Fame.

In my mind, competitiveness refers to the execution of these goals. From the angle of 6844 - are we broken in matches? Do we execute our strategy well each match? And, more generally - are we making the choices and doing the things that are going to help us reach those goals?
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Unread 10-09-2018, 02:50 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi View Post
Just something I've been thinking about as I gear up for the 2019 season with my current team.

As far as on-field performances go - what do you define as "competitive?"

There have been similar threads in the past, but prior to districts, new kitbots, VEXpro and other vendors, etc.

What do you consider "competitive" for your team? (not as a generalization for all FRC teams)
For the last couple seasons, we've had a leadership meeting just prior to winter break and build season to define our goals for the upcoming season. In each instance, the student leadership has reaffirmed that competitive success on the field is one of our primary goals for the upcoming build/competition season, and that part of how we should evaluate our success is based on our competition results. Based on that, we set specific standards we want to achieve. In the past two years, one of those standards has been to be a "first round pick" at our district qualifier events, so I guess you can count that as our definition of "competitive."

I also stress to the students that they may chose objectives other than competitive success, and perhaps even to the detriment of competitive success. We could be a team that defines ourself more on technical innovation, student experimentation, aesthetic quality, or unique robot designs. So far the students haven't opted for prioritizing any of those over competitive success, but they did include the mandate that we would be a "high goal team" in 2018.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 02:53 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

I know you said no to go into generalizations, but that's kinda hard when you're talking about a broad of a concept as "competitiveness" is.

For me, being competitive is taking one aspect of your robot to the extreme to get some value that other teams might not even think about.

For example, the white paper on 4 CIM vs 6 Mini-CIM is a great look at how far teams will analyze one part of their robot. For most teams it wouldn't make a difference between the two drive systems, but for top teams it's crazy not to think about it.

Another example would be (IIRC) 254 focusing on their autonomous so much that they changed their wheels because they weren't accurate going a certain direction on the carpet.

This hyper-analysis into one specific area may not lead to success, but that mentality as you design and plan your robot will. Planning every little detail to work together on the robot will make a team competitive. That's why when you plan your robot for next year don't pick a drive train because you think it might work best with the field; pick a drive train that you think will work best with your robot strategy.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 03:13 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFogarty View Post
I think of matches/events as competitive when teams/robots are on a similar level to one another where execution and strategy are more important to determining the outcome of a match/event.

What are your thoughts? I'm not sure what you are trying to gain insight into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brennonbrimhall View Post
I think there's a difference between "competitive" and "goals." For example, a goal I have for 6844 is playing in eliminations. For other teams, that might be winning a safety award, an offseason, a DCMP, or entering the Hall of Fame.

In my mind, competitiveness refers to the execution of these goals. From the angle of 6844 - are we broken in matches? Do we execute our strategy well each match? And, more generally - are we making the choices and doing the things that are going to help us reach those goals?
Brennon kind of hit my question for me. There's ways to define your goals and ways to define what you consider competitive by your standards.

For example, if you don't make elims, but you played each match and executed the strategy you chose pretty well, do you think that's competitive? Or, do you think you achieved your goal but weren't competitive because you did not make elims.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 03:14 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

Competitivene, for me, means going to elims as a first pick or alliance captain. Once you break that barrier consistently, you're in a good position to improve.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 03:15 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi View Post
What do you consider "competitive" for your team? (not as a generalization for all FRC teams)
For our team competitive means being able to assist or lead an alliance through the elimination rounds to win the event. It's not one specific thing but lots of details that create a culture within the team.

Some examples:
  • Pit and match scouting
  • Pre & post match checklists
  • Bringing enough batteries to have at least 1 per elimination round match
  • Not being shy about having some #realtalk with an alliance partner
  • Being ready for 6 minute match cycles in elims
  • Drive team members capable of driving the robot and fixing it
  • Eliminate social drama between team members
  • Mentors and students that build relationships with other teams
  • Etc. etc.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 03:34 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

For me, competitiveness is a metric that compares a team to the teams they compete against. I would consider a team competitive if they perform at or above the average level of performance of the teams they're competing with, and that's how I define it for my team.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 03:39 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

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Originally Posted by Andrew_L View Post
For me, competitiveness is a metric that compares a team to the teams they compete against. I would consider a team competitive if they perform at or above the average level of performance of the teams they're competing with, and that's how I define it for my team.
What hard metric would you use for a comparison like this? OPR (yes yes not the greatest in all games)?
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Unread 10-09-2018, 03:41 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

Quote:
Competitiveness, for me, means going to elims as a first pick or alliance captain. Once you break that barrier consistently, you're in a good position to improve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
For our team competitive means being able to assist or lead an alliance through the elimination rounds to win the event. It's not one specific thing but lots of details that create a culture within the team.

Some examples:
  • Pit and match scouting
  • Pre & post match checklists
  • Bringing enough batteries to have at least 1 per elimination round match
  • Not being shy about having some #realtalk with an alliance partner
  • Being ready for 6 minute match cycles in elims
  • Drive team members capable of driving the robot and fixing it
  • Eliminate social drama between team members
  • Mentors and students that build relationships with other teams
  • Etc. etc.
Merge these two and that's basically what I was thinking. I would add a few things such as:
  • Reliable autonomous, and all of the hours spent at home and at competition on the practice field that it takes to achieve this.
  • Match strategy.
  • A smart and adaptable drive team who can ditch the for mentioned match strategy in a moment's notice.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 03:58 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

My answer has essentially been different every season based on a few factors including last year's level of success, the amount of student/mentor talent that was lost from the previous year, and the amount of student/mentor talent gained during the new year. Following up from my rookie year in 2013 (winning a regional, winning the state championship, and winning Rookie All Star) the bar was pretty high. Following 2015 where our robot hardly moved, the bar couldn't have been much lower.

For my team I would say that "competitive" has gone from getting selected for the playoffs in most previous years, to being a regional alliance captain this year.
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Unread 10-09-2018, 04:05 PM
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Re: Defining Competitive in FRC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi View Post
Brennon kind of hit my question for me. There's ways to define your goals and ways to define what you consider competitive by your standards.

For example, if you don't make elims, but you played each match and executed the strategy you chose pretty well, do you think that's competitive? Or, do you think you achieved your goal but weren't competitive because you did not make elims.
If I haven't actualized by goal but, in hindsight, I realize that I would still make the same decisions given the information available when I was making those decisions, then I feel successful. Under the definition I provided previously, I was competitive.

If that's not the case - if the choices I was making were "should have known betters" - then I wasn't being competitive under my definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi View Post
What hard metric would you use for a comparison like this? OPR (yes yes not the greatest in all games)?
OPR is good, but there's also CCWM, DPR, rank, and match wins. The effectiveness of these metrics also vary on a per-game basis.

That being said, I'm struggling to see the value of taking an abstract concept like competitiveness and setting it equal to "a hard metric." It's fine to identify indicators/things correlated with competitiveness, but equality doesn't work.
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