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  #241   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-07-2018, 01:33 PM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJBruckUMich View Post
This is different than small components like gearboxes, wheels, structural members, etc.
Tell me that gearboxes, wheels, and structural members (IE Chassis) are small components when you don't have them as COTS. I was around before AndyMark came out with most of these COTS items .... and it is a big deal.


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Originally Posted by M.O'Reilly View Post
What is the origin of the price limit on COTS items?
The price limit on individual COTS items as well as overall purchasing of COTS items is to (somewhat) balance the playing field. Without it, it would be very difficult for rookie/underfunded teams to compete and be inspired ... as they would continually get crushed by "have" teams
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Unread 02-07-2018, 02:42 PM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
...currently far from a bolt on solution.
I recall seeing the sliding bearing block pictured in the attached thumbnail on 254's robot at IRI circa 2006, and thinking "how is that fair?" At the time, the Poofs and a handful of early WCD teams had to machine their own bearing blocks. Now these are COTS , and people complain about paying $25 for the parts and associated tensioning cam.

To reinforce Adam's point: we aren't just bolting these things onto robots. Using even relatively simple COTS parts effectively requires engineering thought. Using the Greyt mechanism kits requires even more engineering thought. The Average Joes learn to think faster when better parts are available. And we still get to make plenty of parts ourselves.
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Last edited by Richard Wallace : 02-07-2018 at 02:46 PM.
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Unread 02-20-2018, 09:44 AM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

Here is my updated opinion and experience related to the Greyt elevator, COTS solutions in general, and what I'm seeing with this game as we hit bag & tag day.

We bought the Greyt elevator (two kits!) But didn't use them. Our students had already done their homework and came up with an elevator of their own design that was deeply inspired by Adam's video series, but did some things differently (bearing sizes, continuous instead of cascade, etc.). We built it and are very happy with the performance. If the Greyt kits are non-returnable, we will use them for off season training in the future. I still think they are a terrific product, and I appreciate both WCP and Adam for what they have brought to this year's game.

I don't think COTS kits like this are foolproof or even very easy to implement. As demonstrated by the number of threads about elevators that aren't working, and by what I've seen in person and in videos this past week, teams still have a lot of work to do to make them minimally functional. Basically they allow teams without CNC machines or other manufacturing capabilities to build more precisely, if they can do the work to figure out how they function and integrate. We will see a few COTS elevators that work great, and a lot that just make robots more tippy and don't help teams improve much. At least for this year. Long term, these types of kits may become well understood enough that they are like gearboxes or the kitbot drivebase, meaning they will be used in creative ways that raise the performance level of average teams.

Last thought: if we were worried that we would see cookie cutter robots this year, all using Greyt elevators and roller claws, well. I'm not seeing it. There are some meat-n-potatoes designs (my team's included), but there is as much variety showing up as I've ever seen.
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Unread 10-19-2018, 04:35 PM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

(Spooktober, time to raise a thread from the dead)

This was a fun thread. Now that the season is over, I'm curious how many of these kits were sold and how many made it onto winning alliances.
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Unread 10-19-2018, 06:35 PM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

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Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
(Spooktober, time to raise a thread from the dead)

This was a fun thread. Now that the season is over, I'm curious how many of these kits were sold and how many made it onto winning alliances.
I'm curious how many made it on to robots at all. I don't remember noticing any while I inspected robots, but that might just be a region thing.
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Unread 10-20-2018, 10:02 PM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

We used the Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator on our robot, and had a great 'bot and a great season. Our kids were able to do, and learn, so much from:
- seeing how the thing worked and the choices that were made in designing it
- interfacing it with the 'bot chassis and drive system, cube-grabber (designed from scratch, we didn't use the kit for that), potential hanging mechanisms, etc.
- seeing what happened when they tried to change something (e.g., to put a more powerful motor onto the elevator, add weight in various ways, mount sensors and wiring, use different aluminum rectangle stock than 'recommended' for various parts)
- having something that would actually work BEFORE it was put into the bag, so they could do more programming, driving, etc.

They had plenty of things to strategize, design, CAD (and learned to interface the CAD drawings for the kit elevator with their own for the rest of the bot), build, program and test.

Overall, it was a fantastic option and choice for our generally 'middle-of-the-pack' team, to learn some 'higher level' skills and lessons (e.g., how to handle it graciously when your robot is fine, but your alliance partner has issues; how to continue improving your 'bot AFTER it gets to the "reliably running and performing its intended functions, with functioning auto code" stage - something we often don't reach until late into our competitions, if at all).
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Unread 10-21-2018, 08:07 AM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

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Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
(Spooktober, time to raise a thread from the dead)

This was a fun thread. Now that the season is over, I'm curious how many of these kits were sold and how many made it onto winning alliances.
We were the 1st seed captain at 2 in-season events, won both using the claw. Made to semis in Turing losing to the the eventual division winners. Just finished the last offseason event for the robot and went undefeated.

Using the claw saved us a lot of time that we translated into more drive practice time.
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Unread 11-12-2018, 10:34 PM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

Our robot competed in 83 matches this season with a record of 54-28-1 using the greyt elevator. We bought it when it came out during build season because we knew the custom machined parts that came with the kit would be more effective than whatever we could make ourselves.

We were worried that if we chose to use our own similar but less efficient vex based design we would be at a competitive disadvantage to teams that bought the kit. I guess we underestimated how many teams would integrate the kit into their robots, as I only maybe saw one or two greyt elevators on other teams all year.

For our two regionals we used a 775 pro with a 45:1 versa planetary gearbox to power it and a vex ratcheting vp stage to hold it up. However we experienced mechanical failures related to the elevator in the finals of both regionals (you can see in match videos if you are interested).

In an effort to make the elevator less prone to breaking we modified the motor mount gusset so we could use a CIM motor with a 9:1 reduction instead. This setup served us well for champs, IRI and two more off-season events.

No matter my mixed feelings about advanced COTs parts like this, the elevator was definitely well designed and very effective. If anyone has any questions about our experience with it feel free to ask.
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Unread 11-13-2018, 07:46 AM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

We played with 6911 at Brunswick Eruption who had one of the Greyt claws with a small gas shock on either side as the spring. Worked out pretty well for them in my opinion.
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Unread 11-15-2018, 06:35 PM
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Re: Greyt Universal Cascade Elevator and Powercube Claw

I'm curious about what will happen with GreyCOTS and the like in 2020? Given the extended build season, how many teams will wait for a solution to buy and integrate?

Clearly, some teams benefited a bunch this year and I don't begrudge them working furiously to successfully integrate into their design within the 6 weeks. They deserve congratulations. How this plays out in an extended season has some pretty serious ramifications, IMHO.
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