OCCRA
Go to Post If the GDC doesn't want better teams to strap components on to other robots, they should design a game that doesn't require better teams to strap components on to other robots to win. - Tom Bottiglieri [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 11:42 AM
Rick TYler Rick TYler is offline
A VEX GUy WIth A STicky SHift KEy
VRC #0010 (Exothermic Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Redmond, Washington
Posts: 1,999
Rick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disappointment (long)

You can't guarantee outcomes -- only effort. If your team did its best, be satisfied. That some other teams had "better" outcomes is just an indication that your hard work should be directed in a slightly different direction next time.
__________________
Exothermic Robotics Club, Venturing Crew 2036
VRC 10A, 10B, 10D, 10Q, 10V, 10X, 10Z, and 575

Last edited by Rick TYler : 03-12-2006 at 10:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 11:45 AM
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,211
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disappointment (long)

If a person goes gambling (gaming) for the first time and wins a lot of money, they are in real danger of becoming addicted to gambling (it was so easy - I won the first time I played....)

In a way this has happened to you. Its rare for a rookie team to win a regional. Its an outstanding accomplishment when you do, but as they say in the music industry you 'havent paid your dues yet'.

There are 6 teams on the field in each game - your team only makes up 16% of the match. No matter how good your robot is it ALWAYS take a bit of luck to come out as the winner of a regional.

You need to let that sink in a bit. Winning last year did not happen because you have the best students/mentors/sponsors/school... at the regional. The point is, whether you win is not 100% under your control.

So if you win dont let it go to your head, and if you lose dont let it get you down.

The robots and the playfield and the plastic trophies <= thats only a game.

What you experience along the way <= thats real! No one can take your FIRST experience away from you.
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 12:24 PM
Richard Wallace's Avatar
Richard Wallace Richard Wallace is offline
I live for the details.
FRC #3620 (Average Joes)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Southwestern Michigan
Posts: 4,434
Richard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disappointment (long)

Several very experienced folks have already contributed to this thread, so I will limit my own response accordingly.

Team 1625 should be extremely proud of their performance and competitiveness at the 2006 St. Louis Regional. All of their students and mentors that I met conducted themselves as gracious professionals. And their robot was clearly well designed and well built, based both on detailed inspection and, more significantly, on performance in competition. Their performance was also recognized by the Autodesk Visualization Award and the Delphi Driving Tomorrow's Technology Award.

There were some complaints about their shooter's muzzle velocity; on two (maybe three?) occasions the head referee ordered ball speed tests. As lead robot inspector the task fell to me to ensure (using the FIRST-supplied ball speedometer device) that 1625 was complying with the muzzle velocity rule <S02> and it is the consensus of all St. Louis officials that they were. I believe the complaints stemmed mainly from competitive envy -- their shooter was easily the most effective at the regional.

On behalf of the St. Louis Regional and of my team (931) I want to congratulate 1625, and to repeat what I told many of them personally yesterday -- we would love to see you again in St. Louis every year.
__________________
Richard Wallace

Mentor since 2011 for FRC 3620 Average Joes (St. Joseph, Michigan)
Mentor 2002-10 for FRC 931 Perpetual Chaos (St. Louis, Missouri)
since 2003

I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.
(Cosmic Religion : With Other Opinions and Aphorisms (1931) by Albert Einstein, p. 97)
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 01:23 PM
Chris27's Avatar
Chris27 Chris27 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Chris Freeman
FRC #1625 (Winnovation)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Mountain View
Posts: 196
Chris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant future
Re: Disappointment (long)

It seems that many of you guys are getting the wrong idea about my post. I do not intend to whine about the outcome of the regional. What is done is done. Take a close look at this.

Quote:
<G22> Intentional ROBOT - ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping
over, or entanglement of ROBOTs are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition and are not
allowed. However, AIM HIGH is a highly interactive game, and some appropriate contact is allowed
subject to the following guidelines
In my opinion there was way too much of the above at St Louis and nothing was done about it. I just wish that more would be done about it next year.

We are already brainstorming ideas of how to make an even better bot. We have continued to learn from our experiences. For example we found out that only one autonomous mode was not enough. We need to be more flexible. We are by no means "giving up"
Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 01:35 PM
chaoticprout's Avatar
chaoticprout chaoticprout is offline
can't wait for next years VRC
AKA: Michael Montazeri
FRC #1138 (Eagle Engineering)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: West Hills, CA
Posts: 265
chaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant futurechaoticprout has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to chaoticprout Send a message via MSN to chaoticprout
Re: Disappointment (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris27
It seems that many of you guys are getting the wrong idea about my post. I do not intend to whine about the outcome of the regional. What is done is done. Take a close look at this.



In my opinion there was way too much of the above at St Louis and nothing was done about it. I just wish that more would be done about it next year.

We are already brainstorming ideas of how to make an even better bot. We have continued to learn from our experiences. For example we found out that only one autonomous mode was not enough. We need to be more flexible. We are by no means "giving up"
While I did not see the St. Louis regional, I did attend BAE and watch the arizona webcast, and one thing important to consider, most teams (read:most) who play defense, don't try to tip your robot. They try to get you out of shooting range in several ways, including pushing up the ramp, pushing you back, pushing you side to side. The bad part about pushing up the ramp, is that teams with high shooters tend to tip over when the defender backs away from the bot. I personally don't see this as "Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping
over" but rather as strategies to stop teams from scoring. This game is rough, and honestly, I think it was 100% intended to be played out the way we've seen it. Why on earth would first totally recommend, as said earlier, bumpers.
These are just my $0.02, as that's the way I see this game being played.
Reply With Quote
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 01:43 PM
MrForbes's Avatar
MrForbes MrForbes is offline
Registered User
AKA: Jim
FRC #1726 (N.E.R.D.S.)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 6,402
MrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disappointment (long)

I have never been to a competition before the Arizona regional, and the interaction between robots was pretty much what I expected to see. Aim High is as much a wrestling match as it is a ball game....
Reply With Quote
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 01:53 PM
Chris27's Avatar
Chris27 Chris27 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Chris Freeman
FRC #1625 (Winnovation)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Mountain View
Posts: 196
Chris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant future
Re: Disappointment (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaoticprout
While I did not see the St. Louis regional, I did attend BAE and watch the arizona webcast, and one thing important to consider, most teams (read:most) who play defense, don't try to tip your robot. They try to get you out of shooting range in several ways, including pushing up the ramp, pushing you back, pushing you side to side. The bad part about pushing up the ramp, is that teams with high shooters tend to tip over when the defender backs away from the bot. I personally don't see this as "Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping
over" but rather as strategies to stop teams from scoring. This game is rough, and honestly, I think it was 100% intended to be played out the way we've seen it. Why on earth would first totally recommend, as said earlier, bumpers.
These are just my $0.02, as that's the way I see this game being played.
I understand robots being tipped over the ram but that wasn't the case. When a team is consistently pushing over non tippy robots in non tippy situations something is wrong there. That team is perfectly aware of what they are doing and they refuse to tone down their pushing/shoving/ramming.
Reply With Quote
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 02:26 PM
George A.'s Avatar
George A. George A. is offline
I come through in a spinsch
AKA: George
FRC #0011 (MORT)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,004
George A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disappointment (long)

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment. When an allaince is playing defense the robots that they are controlling are on the opposite end of the field, and as such they can't always see what's happening...especially if they have 5 other robots running around the field blocking their line of sight.

So granted some tipping may look a little suspicious, but in actuality the driver might not know they have another team wobbly on the ramp. And it would foolish for a driver to stop playing defense because they can't see 100% of what's happening. They owe it to their teammates, their allaince partners, and most importantly themselves to go out on the field and give it their all. If that means that they have to play hard defense in order to win, that's what they're going to do.
__________________
My Volunteer Resumé
Game Announcer NJ: 2005-Present
Game Announcer Philly: 2006-Present
Game Announcer NY: 2005-2008
Game Announcer Champsionships: 2005-2008


Reply With Quote
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 02:28 PM
Rombus's Avatar
Rombus Rombus is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rick Kosbab
FRC #4188 (Columbus Space Program)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Opelika, AL
Posts: 354
Rombus is a name known to allRombus is a name known to allRombus is a name known to allRombus is a name known to allRombus is a name known to allRombus is a name known to all
Send a message via AIM to Rombus
Re: Disappointment (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris27
I understand robots being tipped over the ram but that wasn't the case. When a team is consistently pushing over non tippy robots in non tippy situations something is wrong there. That team is perfectly aware of what they are doing and they refuse to tone down their pushing/shoving/ramming.
But if it was being pushed over constantly, in the flat of the field, wouldn't it be a tippy design? A pure defense bot at Buckeye was 2nd seed as of Friday and ended up 9th overall after selections.

First i feel for you. I felt great about our robot this year, Atlanta would be nice, but i was just hoping to get into the playoffs. At buckeye we were hit with hardware problem after hardware problem that ended up making us have no auto mode and no camera aiming. But our drive team did a kickbutt job, and even with all the problems we ended the day with a 5-6-0, sitting in 25th spot and with what we felt was an impressive show of our robots abilities, great defense and a good shooter, even if we were getting pushed around a bit.

We didn't get picked during alliance selection. i couldn't believe it, since we played well, just had some problematic alliances. 2 lower seed teams got picked over us. Was i disappointed? Yes, i went back down to the pit and just looked at our robot wondering what we had missed. I wanted so badly to get out there one more time just so the rest of the team could go out there to the sideline and cheer there heart out one more time.

But this is the nature of FIRST, In games like this defenses is key. Will team 1278 ever build a pure defense bot? i sure hope not, because there is no fun in that. Half the fun in first is taking the hardest goal of the game and trying your hardest to do it. But FIRST is not about having every team build a robot capable of the hardest task, and defense will always play a key role.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 02:30 PM
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,211
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disappointment (long)

the proof of a design is in its performance. If you push a robot by its bumper zone, and it tips over, then it IS a tippy robot.

if the other teams had arms that came out and pushed above the bumper zone, then they are breaking the rules.

If a team pushes a robot and it keeps tipping over, what is the logical conclusion? That robot should be allowed to sit infront of the goal and shoot all day long, untouched?

or that team should find a way to stop its bot from tipping over so much (modify the robot)?

This is part of the 'paying your dues' that I was talking about. You had a notion of how the game would be played this year, and its a bit rougher on the field than you expected.

The refs did not call any fouls, therefore what you saw IS the game this year.

now its up to you: will you modify your understanding of how the game is be played (this year and in the following years), or will you hang onto your previous notions of how you think the game should have been played, and in the process conclude that FIRST is screwed up?

Last edited by KenWittlief : 03-12-2006 at 02:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 02:34 PM
drwalt drwalt is offline
Registered User
FRC #0005
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Allen Park, MI
Posts: 2
drwalt is on a distinguished road
Re: Disappointment (long)

I can understand well the highs and the lows of competition, just as you describe them, Chris27. I am the parent mentor of a team. I think all teams go through the process you describe at one time or another. Our team has been through a couple of rough years in transition from one major sponsor to another. Many teams are in the same boat. We played in our one and only compeition this year and we didn't make it to the finals, BUT we were winners. After our major sponsor pulled out on September 23 we had no money. Most of our team quit, but the 3 remaining players worked their buns off fundraising and with the gracious help of other teams and some nice people, we were able to register. 2 weeks into the build season is when we found an engineer and simultaneously got a check that allowed us to buy parts. Our kids worked hard, too. They were there every day after school. There was only 3 or 4 kids and the engineer, but they did it. They built a robot and I am proud to say that our kids did all the work. Our engineer took their design and he did alot of the cutting and machining, but our kids designed the robot and they put it together and tested it. It might not have been the best or the most pleasing to the eye, but they got it done and they competed well. They really came together as a team, supporting each other and they placed in the top 20 of the 63 robots in our regional. The scoring was messed up for the first 14 matches of our regional and that messed everyone up, but the point it that we made it there, we learned a ton, and we overcame adversity through sheer tenacity and by the gracious professionalism of other teams that helped us along the way. I am so proud of our kids and I hope they are, too. That is what FIRST is all about. Disappointment is a part of it, but overcoming that moment of regret and seeing pride in all you've accomplished will help you to look forward to next year with excitement and anticipation. I would encourage you to try another regional. If for no other reason, than to get to meet other teams and people and see a new place. Good Luck!
Reply With Quote
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 02:38 PM
Chris27's Avatar
Chris27 Chris27 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Chris Freeman
FRC #1625 (Winnovation)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Mountain View
Posts: 196
Chris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant futureChris27 has a brilliant future
Re: Disappointment (long)

If I can get a hold on some of the video we took I will post it. It should reveal more about the intentions of the opposing team. And btw you can tip over any robot no matter how well it is designed.
Reply With Quote
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 02:47 PM
George A.'s Avatar
George A. George A. is offline
I come through in a spinsch
AKA: George
FRC #0011 (MORT)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,004
George A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge A. has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disappointment (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris27
If I can get a hold on some of the video we took I will post it. It should reveal more about the intentions of the opposing team. And btw you can tip over any robot no matter how well it is designed.

I'm gonna have to argue with you there...especially now since there's a rule (forgive me, I forget the rule number) where all sides of a robot MUST be within 10 degrees of vertical. So this year it's essentially a flat face pushing against a flat face. Unlike in years past where teams used wedges for defense (although some teams used them for offense) they would sit there and score with no worries about being pushed due to the fact that if another team tried to push them they would ride up on the wedge.

I digress, at NJ the most dominant team, IMO, was 25. if I remember correctly I only saw them twice (and I saw every match since I was Game Announcer) the two times they tipped were from getting caught on a ball going up the ramp, and going forward on the ramp and going backward very quickly which tipped them over.

They were being shoved around ALL REGIONAL LONG, and no robot was able to tip them. Add to that that they had one of the lowest shooters in the game, and they managed to come away as #1 seed and eventual Regional Champions is just a testament to the design of their robot, and their ability to adapt.
__________________
My Volunteer Resumé
Game Announcer NJ: 2005-Present
Game Announcer Philly: 2006-Present
Game Announcer NY: 2005-2008
Game Announcer Champsionships: 2005-2008


Reply With Quote
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 02:52 PM
themagic8ball themagic8ball is offline
Registered User
AKA: Mike Weinand
FRC #0537 (Charger Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 126
themagic8ball is on a distinguished road
Re: Disappointment (long)

Hey 1625. I havent read the whole thread but you guys had an awesome bot. We really wanted to be on your alliance for finals but we were picked one team ahead of you. I was dissappointed that you guys didnt make it to the finals because we were really looking forward to your excellant competition.
Reply With Quote
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-12-2006, 02:55 PM
Rick TYler Rick TYler is offline
A VEX GUy WIth A STicky SHift KEy
VRC #0010 (Exothermic Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Redmond, Washington
Posts: 1,999
Rick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disappointment (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
the proof of a design is in its performance. If you push a robot by its bumper zone, and it tips over, then it IS a tippy robot.
Our shooting mechanism had serious issues, but our robot didn't. Despite the fact that it was nearly 60 inches tall, we never tipped over in competition. The reason we didn't is that we intentionally sacrificed some functionality (big hopper for one) to achieve a really low center of gravity. Our superstructure is narrow. Motors are mounted below where they are needed and drive belts and chains go up to the mechanism they are powering. We had an average 6WD drivetrain, but our CG was about two inches above the top of our wheels. We could cruise up and down the ramp at nearly any angle, and didn't worry about tipping. Everything on the robot was influenced by making weight and keeping CG low.

We ended up being a strong defensive force even though we intended to be a top shooter. The only thing separating good defenders from poor ones is the drivetrain and chassis. In the matches I saw, nearly all of the robots that tipped over had top-heavy designs. Most would tip themselves over just driving up the ramp at anything other than an optimal angle. Those of you who feel like you were tipped over unfairly can usually look at your design for the reason.
__________________
Exothermic Robotics Club, Venturing Crew 2036
VRC 10A, 10B, 10D, 10Q, 10V, 10X, 10Z, and 575
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Accelerometer code ImmortalAres Programming 28 06-04-2005 12:02 AM
Threads getting too long to make sense of Ken Leung CD Forum Support 22 05-05-2005 12:14 AM
Northrop/FIRST Redhead Jokes General Forum 9 09-20-2004 11:24 AM
How long should production time be??? archiver General Forum 4 06-23-2002 10:16 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 PM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi