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Unread 07-13-2012, 04:57 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

This is from the introduction to the PDF containing the results of the testing.

Quote:
Additionally, Einstein match play suffered from an intentional act of interference.
I'm too stunned to say more!
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Unread 07-13-2012, 05:13 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

Thread about the report here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=107285
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Unread 07-13-2012, 05:37 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

Read the report in detail.

Lots of "might haves" and "possiblys". No real root cause whatsoever identified. The mystery lives on.
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Unread 07-13-2012, 05:39 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

Does anyone have information on what "custom electronics" 118 had an issue with?

Edit: Got the answer. I assume it's the BeagleBone.
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Unread 07-13-2012, 09:38 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Zach O View Post
Does anyone have information on what "custom electronics" 118 had an issue with?

Edit: Got the answer. I assume it's the BeagleBone.
That's all in the report. And, yes, some of it was the BeagleBone. Some of it was a bad gyro. The two worked together to create something of a perfect storm for a communication failure.
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Unread 07-14-2012, 02:26 AM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Jim Wilks View Post
Read the report in detail.

Lots of "might haves" and "possiblys". No real root cause whatsoever identified. The mystery lives on.
That is definitely not the impression I got after attending the New Hampshire meeting. The FIRST and NI engineers did a fantastic job. They broke down every match for every robot and investigated every segment of time where control was lost. Every single failure was explained very well.

They are being conservative in what the claim as "intentional interference". Even in matches where a witness saw the individual doing what we now know was the hack, they described it as "likely". Only in the case where the individual *admitted* to it, is it described as "confirmed".

We left New Hampshire with the confidence that there will be many specific improvements next year and that hacks like this will be detected by the field. I honestly look forward to the improvements in the system next year.

Last edited by Hjelstrom : 07-14-2012 at 04:24 PM. Reason: forgot to mention National Instruments
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Unread 07-15-2012, 12:39 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

The report has been made public and there has been time to read and review the findings.

There was a big push for FIRST to act, and act quickly, following the troubles that arose on the 2012 Einstein field competition.

I'm interested in seeing what type of closure this has brought to this thread and to those who contributed to it. The thought, with great power comes great responsibility, has been with me for several days. I've been trying to poke holes in the thought as it applies to the work that was done by everyone committed to identifying the problems and documenting them. I can't find any holes to poke - everyone involved acted responsibly and with great integrity. The experience, and how it has been handled, provides all of us with insight towards a newly raised bar of working together, sharing knowledge and experience, and being humble and open to the process of identifying weaknesses, trouble spots, and problems. It's not an easy thing to do to keep egos in check and trust the opportunity being made available. We can all learn from these teams and these leaders who were willing to step up to that bar and, by doing so, move it to a higher level.

It's been an incredible experience to be able to follow this process from the peanut gallery. I won't put what I've experienced and learned from all of you to waste. I will use it wisely. This is a promise.

Thank you.

Jane
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Unread 07-15-2012, 03:26 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by JaneYoung View Post
It's been an incredible experience to be able to follow this process from the peanut gallery. I won't put what I've experienced and learned from all of you to waste. I will use it wisely. This is a promise.
I'm glad this has been an incredible experience for you. For our team, this has been one of the most heartbreaking and deflating experiences possible. I'm glad you want to revel in the sunshine here, but perhaps you should remember that there are still a lot of people who are very hurt and upset. Sure, it's just a robotics competition, but some of us actually care about the robots...
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Unread 07-15-2012, 03:37 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
I'm glad this has been an incredible experience for you. For our team, this has been one of the most heartbreaking and deflating experiences possible. I'm glad you want to revel in the sunshine here, but perhaps you should remember that there are still a lot of people who are very hurt and upset. Sure, it's just a robotics competition, but some of us actually care about the robots...
I'm not sure I'd be able to handle the same situation with the same class you have, Karthik. The whole situation just plain sucks, and so very many of us feel for you guys.
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Unread 07-15-2012, 06:44 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

What you, and your team, experienced throughout 2012 certainly inhales audibly and I can't fathom what it's been like (I wouldn't want to). What Patrick said rings true.
I'm having trouble connecting the dots between Jane's post about learning from the engineering processes of problem solving, troubleshooting, and documentation to your taking it as an attack to your team.
Tragedies happened. We've learned from them, as individuals, as teams, as a community. Why choose to focus on the hurt and distress rather than embrace the lessons that have come? Everybody "cares about the robots" - otherwise we'd be doing science fairs. Otherwise there would have been no investigation, involving people across North America, some not even involved with the 12 Einstein teams Can't we also care about and celebrate the processes, the professionalism, the experience of healing?
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Unread 07-15-2012, 07:13 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

I'm with Taylor Karthik, I don't see how you link Jane's post with the pain your team experienced.

I can try and understand what you guys are going through but there is no way any of us can say we really can. I am truly sorry.

But we have to treat this as a learning experience and carve whatever good we can from the whole thing. I really hope you guys can too.
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Unread 07-15-2012, 07:19 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
What you, and your team, experienced throughout 2012 certainly inhales audibly and I can't fathom what it's been like (I wouldn't want to). What Patrick said rings true.
I'm having trouble connecting the dots between Jane's post about learning from the engineering processes of problem solving, troubleshooting, and documentation to your taking it as an attack to your team.
Tragedies happened. We've learned from them, as individuals, as teams, as a community. Why choose to focus on the hurt and distress rather than embrace the lessons that have come? Everybody "cares about the robots" - otherwise we'd be doing science fairs. Otherwise there would have been no investigation, involving people across North America, some not even involved with the 12 Einstein teams Can't we also care about and celebrate the processes, the professionalism, the experience of healing?
Did the Eh-Team need to have their season ruined by someone trying to "make a point" about computer security for some people on the internet to learn about failure analysis, professionalism, and the experience of healing? No.

Us armchair QBs can say that we learned a lot and will put it to good use -- but did we really go through the process? I don't think we did.
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Unread 07-15-2012, 07:35 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

What I wrote in this thread had to do with this thread. It also had to do with the respect I've felt for those directly involved with situation. It is one that has continually shown us what we are made of as members of FRC.

Jane
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Unread 07-15-2012, 10:17 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Ian Curtis View Post
Did the Eh-Team need to have their season ruined by someone trying to "make a point" about computer security for some people on the internet to learn about failure analysis, professionalism, and the experience of healing? No.

Us armchair QBs can say that we learned a lot and will put it to good use -- but did we really go through the process? I don't think we did.
By 'process' I meant the shared experience of troubleshooting, finding solutions, reading and understanding the documentation that resulted. Of course we didn't go through the "process" of having our dreams shattered in a despicable and embarrassing way, and I don't believe I insinuated that any more than Jane did.
I don't consider myself an armchair QB; I consider myself a creator of tomorrows engineers and problem solvers that can learn and grow from this horrible incident.
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Unread 07-15-2012, 10:20 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
I'm glad this has been an incredible experience for you. For our team, this has been one of the most heartbreaking and deflating experiences possible. I'm glad you want to revel in the sunshine here, but perhaps you should remember that there are still a lot of people who are very hurt and upset. Sure, it's just a robotics competition, but some of us actually care about the robots...
I, too, care about the robots. As an Archimedes team, we were naturally rooting for The Eh Team. I was even more geeked when Chairman's was announced, giving the Simbots the chance to equal HOT's 6-banner 2005 season (with a GTR-W silver kicker). To see things come unglued with this intensity at this level was puzzling to our new students, shocking to our veterans.

That someone would interfere intentionally with Einstein has robbed us all of something. Those us of us watching were robbed of what could've been a spectacular finish to one of the best FRC seasons of the modern era. Twelve teams were robbed of the chance to compete on even terms. And frankly, everyone that's ever set foot on a FIRST field, from corn kernels on, was robbed of a certain innocence, the ability to say "We're better than that." Now we're forced to settle for "All but one of us are better than that, and we threw that bum out."

I hail from a state that has combined for two Einstein appearances ever. We know how rare the shot at the title is, and just how wronged everyone was this year in St. Louis. But without a time machine to hunt down that individual and slap the cell phone out of his hand, all we can do is make the most of the events that follow. This has triggered a number of procedural and technological improvements that will hopefully benefit all teams in the future. And it has served as a stern warning to anyone else thinking they'd want to interfere with a match. I agree that this came at far too high a cost, but at least we all got a sliver of something for our disappointment and heartache.
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