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  #61   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-17-2012, 07:36 AM
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Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by SillyRabbitt View Post
I am a mentor/coach for a rookie team and I just have one question about the final 12 headed to FIRST. How many of the robots in question that lost communication during the matches had on-board cpu's? Its just a thought that might be an issue. One more x-file!
Sorry I didn't answer this before...
In reality "losing communications" is a catch all for what problems actually took place. We only know the robots stopped moving. We know (knew at the time) some of the robots that stopped moving were connected to the field and the RSL lights on the robots showed they were enabled. The problem(s) is(are) far more complex than you might think.
Very few robots this year had on board computers in addition to the Crio. I inspected none in four events. Those teams that really wanted to incorporate the Kinect on the robot used them and a few others for vision processing. I don't remember seeing any on Einstein but it was pretty dark in the pit.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 07:53 AM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by CalTran View Post
Around the world. The Eh-team is Canadian. Simbot Facebook said Simbot Jordan was ever so close to home before he got his ticket to FIRST HQ. I dunno where ATA or OP Robotics are, but I'm sure they're meeting their buddy Simbot Jordan at FIRST too
2056 is from Stoney Creek ON, just up the road from 1114. 4334 is from Calgary AB.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 08:22 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Sorry I didn't answer this before...
In reality "losing communications" is a catch all for what problems actually took place. We only know the robots stopped moving. We know (knew at the time) some of the robots that stopped moving were connected to the field and the RSL lights on the robots showed they were enabled. The problem(s) is(are) far more complex than you might think.
Very few robots this year had on board computers in addition to the Crio. I inspected none in four events. Those teams that really wanted to incorporate the Kinect on the robot used them and a few others for vision processing. I don't remember seeing any on Einstein but it was pretty dark in the pit.
Our "losing communications" moments at QCR involved 3 matches of a working hybrid mode, then as soon as teleop started, no comms, no code. One match, about 3 seconds of hybrid mode, then no comms, no code. One match - as soon as the match began, no comms, no code. Four of the five matches, a connection was reestablished with about :10 left in the match; the last one, we never had connectivity during the match. These issues appeared at different stations and different alliances. When we reset the router firmware from v1.4 to v1.2 it appeared to fix the problems (the last two matches, we saw no communication issues). We had no comm issues at BMR, during practice at QCR, or the first half of Friday at QCR. We had no extra onboard computer.
As Al said, the "losing communications" catchall really envelops a lot of symptoms and issues, and ours -seems to- have been traced back to an individual robot issue.
It is a tangled web indeed, and I do not envy those charged with unraveling it. As has been said before, I hope a bumpercrop of identifiable and repeatable issues pop up in June.

Sorry to hijack the Einstein thread with a regional vignette, but I felt it was part of the greater picture.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 08:47 AM
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Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
When we reset the router firmware from v1.4 to v1.2 it appeared to fix the problems (the last two matches, we saw no communication issues). We had no comm issues at BMR, during practice at QCR, or the first half of Friday at QCR.
Anybody else experience this? Taylor is it possible that the firmware was corrupt? Had you tried re-flashing the router with the v1.4? Not to hijack the thread, but all of you can PM me with this info. Thanks.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 09:13 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Anybody else experience this? Taylor is it possible that the firmware was corrupt? Had you tried re-flashing the router with the v1.4? Not to hijack the thread, but all of you can PM me with this info. Thanks.
At GTR-W, all the teams with firmware 1.4 had difficulties connecting to the field whenever there were more than 3 robots on the field at a time. We were one of about a half a dozen teams that had to downgrade our router firmware to 1.21. The problem was first noticed on Thursday afternoon when we started getting more than 3 robots at a time for practice matches. Anytime a robot with Firmware 1.4 went out on the field and powered on, ping times for all teams would spike, and robots would start randomly dropping out and reconnecting. The running theory was that the combination of a large number of access points, and the something in the 1.4 firmware was causing communication to drop in and out. By late Thursday afternoon, everybody downgraded to 1.21, and the event ran smoothly.

Figuring out that it was specific robots that was causing the problem was tricky. We couldn't figure out how something specific to our robot was causing so many difficulties for all the other teams on the field, especially since we had already attended two other regionals, and run without a single issue at either. The FTA asked all the teams that seemed to be causing the field difficulties to check their firmware, and we realized it was the one thing we all had in common. Thinking back, I can't recall if it was something that inspectors checked that at the Championship. Does anyone else remember being asked router firmware at the Championship?

It was one of the things that each Einstein team was asked in the questionnaire we filled out.
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Last edited by Holtzman : 05-17-2012 at 10:45 AM.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 09:37 AM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

We had issues at SMR with 1.4 and stopped in 3 matches.

We made other changes also to reduce the CPU demand, but also downgraded to 1.21 and did not have problems at BMR or CHP.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 10:28 AM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

This was noted back in March
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=35
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Unread 05-17-2012, 11:27 AM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

I dont know if im saying this right but when every my team (1985) and 1986 where on the same field at the same time the FMS whould shut down and this happened at GKC at STL regionals so i was wondering is FIRST looking into this as well
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Unread 05-17-2012, 11:30 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Sorry I didn't answer this before...
In reality "losing communications" is a catch all for what problems actually took place. We only know the robots stopped moving. We know (knew at the time) some of the robots that stopped moving were connected to the field and the RSL lights on the robots showed they were enabled. The problem(s) is(are) far more complex than you might think.
Very few robots this year had on board computers in addition to the Crio. I inspected none in four events. Those teams that really wanted to incorporate the Kinect on the robot used them and a few others for vision processing. I don't remember seeing any on Einstein but it was pretty dark in the pit.
Al,
Our robot has an on board cpu (Panda Board) for our on board Kinect and we never had any problems until Einstein.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 11:35 AM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

Joe,
The CPU likely was not the problem but anything is possible. How did you interface to the control system?
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Unread 05-17-2012, 12:22 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

Sometime after Week 4 of regional competitons, CSAs were asked to check the WPA kiosk logs to identify teams with D-Link firmware version 1.40 and to watch for issues. Maybe not all of them got the memo.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 12:31 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

Just a thought, but I couldn't help but notice that there was a lot of spare time between when the divisions finished playing and the start of Einstein. It would be a good idea to have 6 bots from the divisions, that did not make it to Einstein, play a few rounds just to test the field systems? You could have a raffle to see which teams make it to the pre-Einstein "just for fun" event, this way the people in the stands have something to watch (although the paper airplanes were a good distraction ), and also if the field does have any issues you would be able to catch them before the first matches start. And you can just use leftover basketballs (or some other game piece for next year) from the divisions, so Einstein has a fresh field still.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 01:29 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

At CMP, we ran laggy controls (robot responded 2 seconds after operator input, tons of dropped packets, long trip times) on 1.4. Downgraded to 1.21 and all was well.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 03:14 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by class1234567 View Post
I dont know if im saying this right but when every my team (1985) and 1986 where on the same field at the same time the FMS whould shut down and this happened at GKC at STL regionals so i was wondering is FIRST looking into this as well
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri View Post
At CMP, we ran laggy controls (robot responded 2 seconds after operator input, tons of dropped packets, long trip times) on 1.4. Downgraded to 1.21 and all was well.
These should also be reported to the email address in Jon's letter.
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Unread 05-17-2012, 05:02 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by steelerborn View Post
Just a thought, but I couldn't help but notice that there was a lot of spare time between when the divisions finished playing and the start of Einstein. It would be a good idea to have 6 bots from the divisions, that did not make it to Einstein, play a few rounds just to test the field systems? You could have a raffle to see which teams make it to the pre-Einstein "just for fun" event, this way the people in the stands have something to watch (although the paper airplanes were a good distraction ), and also if the field does have any issues you would be able to catch them before the first matches start. And you can just use leftover basketballs (or some other game piece for next year) from the divisions, so Einstein has a fresh field still.
I like your idea but potentially one of the robots could damage the field not just the game pieces, but i noticed that the bridges tended to become damaged from certain bridge manipulators. Wheels also tended to scrape up the plastic covering that the bridges had on them.
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