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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-01-2018, 01:45 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

Happy to see a topic about negative lessons learned.
Hopefully no one is drunk to tell the truth in this topic .
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Unread 05-01-2018, 02:25 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by hardcopi View Post
I also did not like that RP was something that required all 3 robots to be present. So if a robot doesn't show up there goes your rank. Just didn't feel fair that RP was based so heavily on something completely uncontrollable. Maybe have a rule that cross RP means that all robots that show up have to cross? Not sure.
If the GDC's goal is to align incentives around all teams being competitive every match, I'd say that having an RP that requires all 3 robots to be present is a means to that end. With some exceptions, getting all robots to show up and drive straight is more under your control than you might think, and far from completely uncontrollable.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 03:35 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by dcarr View Post
If the GDC's goal is to align incentives around all teams being competitive every match, I'd say that having an RP that requires all 3 robots to be present is a means to that end. With some exceptions, getting all robots to show up and drive straight is more under your control than you might think, and far from completely uncontrollable.
I do agree somewhat but having 2 RP based around your alliance partners made your ranking even more schedule focused than ever before. Additionally the value of an RP is much higher for a team contesting for top 8 than it is for an average team at champs who knows they won't rank high enough. At least the district system puts additional value on ranking outside the top 8.

The tricky part about FIRST implementing game elements that require a high level of cooperation from a partner in quals (cheesecake, autos, etc.) is that the teams who need the help (usually potential 2nd picks) usually don't care about their ranking. Their motivation to work with you is so you may choose to pick them as a 2nd pick and win the event. You can then divide the teams who want to rank high into 2 categories.

1. Teams who want to rank high as possible but know they probably won't be top seed or first overall pick. (2nd Tier teams)

2. Teams who are an event front-runner, they want to rank high as possible to have control over the event but they know even if they don't rank high enough they will probably be the 1st or 2nd overall pick. (powerhouse teams)

As someone who's been in both categories teams are in general much more willing to work with you if they think you have the potential to win the event.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 04:08 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by hardcopi View Post
Not showing the game animation before the final Einstein. Forcing FTC to watch FRC and vice versa is fine, but show the game animation. One of our mentors watched the FTC and said "Wow there was a lot going on, it looked pretty cool but I have no clue what was going on." Not like they didn't have time...
I'm the guy that creates the FTC animation. The Game Design Committee asked me to make two versions for 2019: a 3-4 minute version for the Kickoff and a 1 minute summary for spectators.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 04:19 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Kevin Thorp View Post
I'm the guy that creates the FTC animation. The Game Design Committee asked me to make two versions for 2019: a 3-4 minute version for the Kickoff and a 1 minute summary for spectators.
Unfortunately, unless I missed it, neither of those were shown at Ford Field.

I was starting to get the gist of it by listening to the after-game commentary, but the spectator version would have been great just before starting the finals matches. Same with Power Up.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 04:48 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Big-b View Post
Just comparing the matches in the GRB to those in MMP this year, the view was much better in the GRB, and if you couldn't see the field, there was a full field view available on any of the six screens above the fields. In MMP, you were lucky if you could see the field (binoculars were helpful to discern what was going on) and they still didn't have a full field view on the screen on the other side of the field if you didn't.
If they don't fix the other glaring issues at MMP, I completely agree. Changing the field placement would greatly improve sight lines (and GRB still wasn't perfect) and replacing the toddler-run field footage would make a tremendus difference.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 04:50 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by GreyingJay View Post
Unfortunately, unless I missed it, neither of those were shown at Ford Field.

I was starting to get the gist of it by listening to the after-game commentary, but the spectator version would have been great just before starting the finals matches. Same with Power Up.
They wern't shown on stream for either half-champ.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 05:28 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

Houston.
“FIRST is more than robots” but I am seeing that give way to it is about the robot.
College row had fewer representatives. The innovation faire had way fewer companies and very little glitz. For example, no large Lego structures, Spacex and the Falcon 9 engine from ST Louis to name a few. Fewer team costumes and festival attire. The handful of great robot supply companies in the lobby is just a shadow of what I recall from Championships past. No cool demonstrations. There were some nice presentations/conferences but nothing like what I recall at Atlanta or even St Louis years ago.
Award presentations used to bring the whole house to its feet in congratulatory celebration. Most of the teams in my section sat even for the Chairman’s award. That used to be a big deal but I did not see that at Houston and even now at regionals.

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Unread 05-01-2018, 08:04 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
The easy fix here is to vastly restrict the qualifications for Champs. Go back to 1 Champs. No wild cards, no waitlist, no 2nd picks from alliances, no rookie all stars, halve the number of district qualifications. You can solve the problem of teams not wanting to come to a watered down Champs by restricting the number of teams that can come to Champs at all. That will surely improve Champs attendance.
While others have listed lots of good alternatives, if it came down to it, I'd rather have true champs than two champs....
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Unread 05-01-2018, 09:16 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by GreyingJay View Post
Unfortunately, unless I missed it, neither of those were shown at Ford Field.

I was starting to get the gist of it by listening to the after-game commentary, but the spectator version would have been great just before starting the finals matches. Same with Power Up.
2019 = next year.

At Einstein we'll show a short animation explaining the FTC "Rover Ruckus" game.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 10:28 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
Ah yes, the classic "I don't like the way you made your point so I'll call it "whining", and then proceed to whine about it"

Solid.
That wasn't what I was getting at.

What I was getting at was that it seemed like all I heard, all season, was "we don't like this, FIRST needs to change it". All. Bloody. Season. And what I really don't like is that FIRST actually did change some things. I can't say I disagree with the changes, per se, but IMO there are some things that just need to be "You need to wait until later for this".

While the way the points were made was actually reasonable, the sheer volume (and a few particular people) just seemed to me like a bunch of temper tantrums.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 11:58 PM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
The easy fix here is to vastly restrict the qualifications for Champs. Go back to 1 Champs. No wild cards, no waitlist, no 2nd picks from alliances, no rookie all stars, halve the number of district qualifications. You can solve the problem of teams not wanting to come to a watered down Champs by restricting the number of teams that can come to Champs at all. That will surely improve Champs attendance.
This is exactly what FIRST should do (Other than removing the wildcard - if you get even a silver medal, you should have a better chance than a 3rd round pick)
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Unread 05-02-2018, 10:14 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
That wasn't what I was getting at.

What I was getting at was that it seemed like all I heard, all season, was "we don't like this, FIRST needs to change it". All. Bloody. Season. And what I really don't like is that FIRST actually did change some things. I can't say I disagree with the changes, per se, but IMO there are some things that just need to be "You need to wait until later for this".

While the way the points were made was actually reasonable, the sheer volume (and a few particular people) just seemed to me like a bunch of temper tantrums.
Lumping several disconnected decisions which each had their own subtle causes and effects, and ultimately rational conclusions, into one 'issue' and saying that much of the discussion around them were temper tantrums?? I'm failing to see how this is a reasonable take.

Even more so, you're telling people they should have just dealt with it instead of voicing their concerns about it lest they be labeled a 'temper tantrum-er'.

Am I missing your point? Because I'm failing to see how we have common ground based on what I outlined above.

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Unread 05-02-2018, 10:40 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

I think the launching rule was...unique.

I think in the future, FIRST needs to decide what they want that rule to achieve, and then stick to that in good faith. For example, if the launching rule existed for the purpose of safety (e.g. keeping cubes in the field, out of robots, and relatively undamaged) then create those rules instead of a launching rule. Make the penalties stiff. If the objective was to make the game harder, choose a clear and enforceable definition, ideally one that is consistent across the field (e.g. you can launch when in contact with x, y, or z, not you can launch when in contact with x, breaking the plane of y, etc. etc.).

Vague rules lead to different enforcement across events, which is difficult for teams who have a mechanism that launches. Teams and refs both deserve a clear outline of what is and is not okay.
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Unread 05-02-2018, 10:41 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
What I was getting at was that it seemed like all I heard, all season, was "we don't like this, FIRST needs to change it". All. Bloody. Season. And what I really don't like is that FIRST actually did change some things. I can't say I disagree with the changes, per se, but IMO there are some things that just need to be "You need to wait until later for this".

While the way the points were made was actually reasonable, the sheer volume (and a few particular people) just seemed to me like a bunch of temper tantrums.
This is an incredibly dumb take. I applaud FIRST for making changes to improve a game in response to community feedback. They are trying to make the game turn out as well as possible. That sheer volume of feedback is important, because without that, changes don't necessarily happen.
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