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Unread 03-29-2009, 06:53 PM
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Re: Michigan rankings

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Originally Posted by Ed Law View Post
I am very confused with what is happening in Grandville. Is Team 216 a second team from Grandville High School that already has team 288? So even though all students were new to the program including the coaches, they are not considered a rookie team. There is something wrong with this picture when Team 2771 has 9 students and their mentor who left Team 288 who have done FRC for years to start a new team and they are considered a rookie team. It just doesn't seem to be fair.
Ed Law,

To clarify some of your questions you are correct when stating 216 is part of 288. Both are affilated with Grandville High School.

There are 20 plus students involved with the program and out of those students there is 1 who is returning. That student is part of Team 288

The rest of the students are new to the program as well as most are with robotics.

With the coaches one is brand new to the program with no previous experience with FRC. The other coach was involved with robotics 11 years ago when he helped start the robotics team. But then left the following year.
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Unread 03-29-2009, 06:59 PM
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Re: Michigan rankings

The point system is to award consistent good play. If you go and do poorly at your first event, then you have a lot of ground to make up. If you do well in your second event and make it up, great... If not...you might be on the sidelines for the championship... Maybe you should have been better prepared for that first event...

How do you think the teams that got left out of the NCAA basketball tournament felt? I'm sure there are MILLIONS of opinions about why this team or that team should have not be in, or was left out... And that doesn't even have a solid points system behind who gets in...

There will ALWAYS be feelings of why this team or that team should have been included/not included... But you can't make all of the people happy all of the time.

I think the point system worked well and the State Championship event is going to be "wicked awesome"...
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Unread 03-29-2009, 07:09 PM
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Re: Michigan rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Law View Post
I am very confused with what is happening in Grandville. Is Team 216 a second team from Grandville High School that already has team 288? So even though all students were new to the program including the coaches, they are not considered a rookie team. There is something wrong with this picture when Team 2771 has 9 students and their mentor who left Team 288 who have done FRC for years to start a new team and they are considered a rookie team. It just doesn't seem to be fair.
216 and 288 are bothe grandville teams. we chose to have 2 teams this year for more hands on experience for our team. we have 2-3 returning people, and all new coaches. we are not called a 'rookie team' because we are an established team, and have been for 10 year now [wow! 1999!!].

Sadly, due to a change of leaders, and a few things unbeknownst to the students, we had a team split we werent expecting. Code red formed with the old Robodawgs coach, a few of the former Robodawg students, and other schools in our area, and are a 'rookie team' from what FIRST deemed, so they are a 'rookie team'.

And I hope that 216 goes to state, we worked hard through much of what a 'rookie team' faces, with so few people that returned, but a drive to work our hardest. Thanks to thoes who think we should go.

I also think, as a few others said, It would be a true example of GP if the teams that qualify for state who maybe got up there through a bit of good fortune would step down, and let teams thay may have had a hard time early on, but came back to kick some bolts on to state.

However this is an opinian, and as I am entitled to mine, you may have yours.

I hope to see you all at state!

~Abby, 216~
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Unread 03-29-2009, 07:21 PM
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Re: Michigan rankings

so we are banking on the hope our school will send a P.O. to either pay or lend us the money for states, we'll find out tomorrow morning... i hope not too many teams can't afford it, its rather sad that teams qualify then can't afford to go
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Unread 03-29-2009, 08:27 PM
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Re: Michigan rankings

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Originally Posted by dragonrulr288 View Post
216 and 288 are bothe grandville teams. we chose to have 2 teams this year for more hands on experience for our team. we have 2-3 returning people, and all new coaches. we are not called a 'rookie team' because we are an established team, and have been for 10 year now [wow! 1999!!].

Sadly, due to a change of leaders, and a few things unbeknownst to the students, we had a team split we werent expecting. Code red formed with the old Robodawgs coach, a few of the former Robodawg students, and other schools in our area, and are a 'rookie team' from what FIRST deemed, so they are a 'rookie team'.

And I hope that 216 goes to state, we worked hard through much of what a 'rookie team' faces, with so few people that returned, but a drive to work our hardest. Thanks to thoes who think we should go.

I also think, as a few others said, It would be a true example of GP if the teams that qualify for state who maybe got up there through a bit of good fortune would step down, and let teams thay may have had a hard time early on, but came back to kick some bolts on to state.

However this is an opinian, and as I am entitled to mine, you may have yours.

I hope to see you all at state!

~Abby, 216~
Hi,

Thanks for clarifying the history between 216, 288 and 2771. Congratulations on your accomplishments as a new "non-rookie" team and the improvement on the robot you were able to make within a few weeks. I think Grandville High School is a great example to other big teams to split into two teams so more students have hands-on experience on the robot instead of having very limited responsibilities. It is not easy to make that choice especially with the economy we have in Michigan to have to raise more money. Team 216 is only 6 places below the cutoff. There will probably be teams who can not raise the money (not that we hope any team will not be able to) or decide to skip State to save money and go to Atlanta. I really hope you can make it after all your hard work.

I don't have any hard feelings with 2771. I want to congratulate them on their accomplishments. They did a lot of work and provided a great service to other teams through their webcasts. They won 3 of the Rookie All-Star Awards at the 7 districts. I think they deserve to win the Chairman's Award instead for their work and let other true rookie teams have a chance at the Rookie All-Star Award. In my opinon, even with 4 veteran FRC students on the team at the time of kickoff and 5 more veteran FRC students join only after the kickoff should not qualify them as a rookie team. I know FIRST allowed them to decide on their own because of that unique situation. I don't think it is a very GP tihng to make the choice they made. I think FIRST should clarify the definition of rookie team.

Ed
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Unread 03-30-2009, 06:06 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Law View Post
Hi,

Thanks for clarifying the history between 216, 288 and 2771. Congratulations on your accomplishments as a new "non-rookie" team and the improvement on the robot you were able to make within a few weeks. I think Grandville High School is a great example to other big teams to split into two teams so more students have hands-on experience on the robot instead of having very limited responsibilities. It is not easy to make that choice especially with the economy we have in Michigan to have to raise more money. Team 216 is only 6 places below the cutoff. There will probably be teams who can not raise the money (not that we hope any team will not be able to) or decide to skip State to save money and go to Atlanta. I really hope you can make it after all your hard work.

I don't have any hard feelings with 2771. I want to congratulate them on their accomplishments. They did a lot of work and provided a great service to other teams through their webcasts. They won 3 of the Rookie All-Star Awards at the 7 districts. I think they deserve to win the Chairman's Award instead for their work and let other true rookie teams have a chance at the Rookie All-Star Award. In my opinon, even with 4 veteran FRC students on the team at the time of kickoff and 5 more veteran FRC students join only after the kickoff should not qualify them as a rookie team. I know FIRST allowed them to decide on their own because of that unique situation. I don't think it is a very GP tihng to make the choice they made. I think FIRST should clarify the definition of rookie team.

Ed
I currently have to teams at Monroe High School. 1528 and 2719 (rookie team). However, to get classified as a rookie I had to submit a request for review of our team. I stated that 2719 is a classroom team and is not a part of the 1528 team. I have 2 students on my team with FIRST experience. When the decision came back to allow us to be a rookie team, it was clearly stated that we were considered a rookie team because we only had those two students with previous FIRST experience. I was told that we could have up to a total of 5 experienced students on my team to be classified as a rookie. If 2771 has a total of 9 experienced students on there team, then they should be stripped of there rookie status and any awards they received with it. You are absolutely correct in stating that 2771 should show some gracious professionalism and report the change of status and return thos awards.
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Unread 03-30-2009, 07:18 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

"Looking at teams that are just below the cut, I'm sad to see some good teams didn't make it. Teams like 3115 (amazing rookie team), 1189 (has lots of potential), 3096 (really high on my scouting list), 2960 (I mean they were amazing at Troy), 2719 (great rookie team that were great opponents at Detroit) and 2337 (seeing as their batteries are secure )."

Alex, thank you for the complement. 2719, worked really at Detroit to make a competitive robot. Considering the week before at Cass Tech, they were only on the field three times. At Cass Tech, they completely changed out their drive train and transformed an illegal shooter out to the garbage can that you saw at Detroit. This is a huge complement to my students. They really busted their butts to be able to compete and I will pass on to the team your high remarks. Thank you
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Unread 03-30-2009, 08:28 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

Not to cause too much contention, but my thoughts concerning team 216 earning a spot in the state tournament was based only on their being the winning alliance captain. To clarify, I do not believe that the first or second pick teams from the winning alliance should get an automatic spot, just the captain. This is just my $.02.
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Unread 03-30-2009, 09:30 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Springman View Post
Not to cause too much contention, but my thoughts concerning team 216 earning a spot in the state tournament was based only on their being the winning alliance captain. To clarify, I do not believe that the first or second pick teams from the winning alliance should get an automatic spot, just the captain. This is just my $.02.
Springman,

I agree with you on this. If I remember correctly when you won a Regional in the past did that not give you a place in Atlanta? I think the winning captain should get a spot at state. But of course I have a vested interest in wanting it that way

But the way it looks right now 216 will not be going to state.

That is sad for all the students
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Unread 03-30-2009, 09:44 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

Dan - I believe that there will be at least 8 teams above the cut not going to state. That should be known at the end of the day.
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Unread 03-30-2009, 09:45 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

The problem is that because 216 was one of the few lucky teams to be able to go to a third event for $500, if the points or results were able to be counted, isn't that not fair to other teams that could not go to a third event (due to no slots available), even though they improved their robot significantly in their second event (830 comes to mind)?

I commend 216 on their improvement and think it's great that they did so well at WM. But they had the pleasure of a third event for $500 which is AWSOME in it's own right. Some of us that want a third event have to pay $4000 for that...
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Unread 03-30-2009, 09:46 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

drhall,

I understand that you are disappointed, but your team should compare to if you competed last year instead of this year:

This year, for $5,500 registration you received:

49 matches and three events.

Last year for $6,000 you would have received:

8 or 9 matches (at GLR or West Michigan). Based on your first event performance this year, that is all the matches you would have had.

Or looking at it from a three events standpoint:

This year = 49 matches and $5,500

Last year (Assume GLR, Detroit, and Midwest) = 39 matches and $14,000 not including travel.

While I hope 216 gets in (I think you will), your team should be very glad your non-rookie first year (that is just wierd to me) was this year and not last year.

Paul

P.S. - To just assign the alliance captain an automatic berth is silly. If you want my reasons, I will list them in a PM as the list is too long for a normal post.
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Unread 03-30-2009, 09:58 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

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Originally Posted by lhoppe View Post
Dan - I believe that there will be at least 8 teams above the cut not going to state. That should be known at the end of the day.
Larry,

Thank you for the information. If we are able to go that would be great, but all the teams above us deserve the spot before 216.

Also a big THANK YOU to you and all the other people from this past weekend that made WM the best Regional we attended. You guys did a great job in making it work great.

Dan
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Unread 03-30-2009, 10:42 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

Ok, got to say this on what was said above about captain/first pick/second pick differentiation.

There should be little to none. Some teams get to be the alliance captain out of luck. You end up making excellent choices for your two picks and you will have a win. In other words, all three could be achieved by luck.

Also, the second pick is perhaps the most important pick in forming an alliance. The first pick is usually rather obvious. Pick a team that is ranked highly that works well with your team. The second pick involves so much more. It requires you to know more about all the teams then the other captains. Being able to pick the team that everyone overlooks. In all honesty the rank does not matter at all. If you end up getting picked by an amazing team that ranked 1 and 2 in the qualifications, you too are an amazing team. You didn't prove it by winning matches in the qualifications, but you did prove it in other ways. You just did a great job networking, your robot must be pretty good, your entire drive team must be great to work with....The list goes on.

In all honesty, there will always be luck in the game. If I recall they mention somewhere that they put luck in on purpose for excitement. But get used to it.

If a team that was "carried"(your term not mine) gives up their spot out of "GP", that would be completely ridiculous. They put in so much work, regardless of how their robot itself did. Your team won that spot, not your robot, so what?

A true form of GP would be to send out a congratulations to all the teams that made it, regardless of whether or not you think they should have.

PS: I know nothing of the Michigan ranking system, but I do know something about life and people. Please read my remarks above as an honest assessment of what is posted here alone.
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Unread 03-30-2009, 11:16 AM
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Re: Michigan rankings

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Originally Posted by Springman View Post
Not to cause too much contention, but my thoughts concerning team 216 earning a spot in the state tournament was based only on their being the winning alliance captain.
Regardless, they were the winning alliance captain in their third tournament. Unless there is opportunity for every other team to compete in 3 events, any results in the third event cannot be counted.
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