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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2018, 05:05 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

We got one for G05, Archimedes Qal6.
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Unread 05-03-2018, 05:08 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

Let's take each of these one at a time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson View Post
I think the refs were out of control on these G05 rules involving completely inconsequential breaking of the plane.
This is dangerous for a pair of reasons. First, I can't remember a single post I've seen from you here that isn't using incredibly loaded language. I don't know if this is on purpose or just the way you communicate. But, you'll tend to get more constructive responses if you get this language under control. When you appear to be coming from an angry position and don't appear to leave any room for conversation, you're unlikely to find productive conversation.

Second, the most controlled situation is a consistent one in which people know what to expect. If the rule is interpreted in a frustrating way, this is more controlled than if it is called in an inconsistent manner. Then, each instance becomes a struggle to guess which way it'll be called that time. In many cases where interpretation may be frustrating, consider the alternative. Here, it's not as pleasant as you'd like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson View Post
First of all, it seems to me that giving a red card for "strategic violation" of a rule should be reserved for extreme situation where it is effectively impossible for a team to get the result they desire without violating the rule
As noted elsewhere in this thread, you have the potential to swap 3 RP with this single action. I'd agree it should be applied if that's the only way to achieve your goal. However, I'd also point out it's strange to not have a harsh penalty for teams that COULD do things in other ways and opt not to. When you open up this door, you run into situations where taking penalties is better than playing by the rules. That starts you down a new path that can be messy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson View Post
Second of all, I have yet to see anything I would call as a "strategic" violation of G05.
What would you call strategic? I'll get into why this specifically is viewed as strategic in your next points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson View Post
Much more typically, what I saw was a super nervous drive team in a panic at the end of the match breaking an inconsequential imaginary plane that hurt nobody.
That's not really true. You're taking things in a vacuum when you cannot do so. If this allows a team to climb easier, it potentially adds RP to the alliance which "hurts" every other team in the rankings. Additionally, it adds points to the current match that can sway which alliance gets 2RP for this specific match. You cannot view anything that increases a match's score or an alliances RP as harmless to all others involved. Doing so is disingenuous, at best.

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Originally Posted by Joe Johnson View Post
Daly 2018dal_qf2m2 is a good example. Over the season, Gems (#4362) had done that "hook and move away" maneuver literally dozens of times successfully without getting a DQ. I don't believe that they were "strategically" violating this rule. It was clearly a mistake done in a panic in the heat of the moment. And in fact, it literally benefited the alliance not at all since their partner did not climb.
This was actually one of the worst examples you could provide for your point. Here's why: their alliance partner struggled to climb. You're arguing there's no strategic value to creating space for the team to climb. But, you're showing an example where a team needed every second, every inch, and still fell short. This is a perfect example of how creating that space provides strategic value, intentional or mistaken.

Just because the alliance failed to climb doesn't mean there wasn't any strategic value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson View Post
Third of all, this is just bad for the sport. FIRST should strive to avoid making a game where an inconsequential violation of a rule that provides minor if any benefit to a team provides an effective death blow to the entire alliance.
In the worst case, it gives an alliance a loss during elims. In all other instances, it affects a single team (although sometimes I'd argue the wrong team). This doesn't provide a "death blow" in any circumstances. You need two losses in elims. If this is one of the two, it's a component of the loss rather than the reason for the loss. If it's during quals, it leaves the alliance without impact.

Here's a question for you: do you want referees to be making decisions on whether or not they believe each time a robot leaves the platform zone if that departure made it easier to score a double climb (even if unsuccessful)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson View Post
I think this was poorly called all season and someone should have stepped in and fixed this as soon as it was clear that this is how the refs were calling this rule.
Another piece of advice for you: bringing up problems without solutions is a poor way to handle things. In order to give you a chance to correct this, how would you have liked to see this called?
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Unread 05-03-2018, 07:42 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

I would like to clarify my comments that I made at the beginning of the thread. I acknowledge that the referees were correct in their calls and did not mean to be disrespectful in any way of them. Any opinions expressed in my posts were my own and do not represent the opinions of team 2783. Thank you refs for all that you sacrifice and the time you spend!
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Unread 05-03-2018, 07:47 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

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Any opinions expressed in my posts were my own and do not represent the opinions of team 2783. Thank you refs for all that you sacrifice and the time you spend!
Your opinions still reflect upon your team. They always do. In this case they reflect well upon your team.
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Unread 05-03-2018, 08:14 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

I do share some sentiments with Joe here - I think it's pretty clear what G05 was supposed to apply to (things like deploying mechanisms to block part of the field, conveyor belts to score power cubes, etc.), and most of the G05 red cards issued that I saw were not due to that. Sure, exiting the platform zone momentarily could give an alliance an advantage, but so could many other penalty-drawing actions, like herding (that's why they draw penalties). That doesn't mean they should all be penalized with red cards.

I don't have a great suggestion for how to modify G05 to avoid this, or for some of the card-inducing gear-related actions from last year (besides common sense - if something doesn't seem egregious enough to deserve a card, it probably doesn't). A couple possibilities, though:

- Make G05 a red card for only "egregious" expansions, and/or a foul of some sort for "brief" or "inconsequential" expansions. I know this is vague, but there are already several rules that use the word "egregious" that I think have been applied appropriately and infrequently enough.
- Eliminate or reduce the penalty for robots whose bumpers are partly within the platform zone (instead of fully), and/or robots who don't contact an opponent robot.

That said, I don't think the GDC expected to see G05 applied like this, and I certainly don't blame refs, who had no choice in the matter. I would like to see a reduction in "nuisance" cards in the future, though, if possible - I've seen a number in 2017/18, and don't remember many from 2015/16.
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Unread 05-03-2018, 08:21 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
I saw a lot of red cards in Detroit for G05. Robots would put their hook up, then attempt to back up to allow a partner to get hooked on... and in the process their back end would inch out of the platform zone. It's unfortunate, but it is strategic.
Indeed. I hadn’t seen it called at any of the Michigan events I worked in 2018 (though I was aware that it had happened at least a handful of times at various district events, and at least once at MSC, though not on my field).

To echo some of the other comments made in this thread, we must look at the letter of the rules. The success or failure of an action doesn’t change the inherent, strategic nature of that action. Fortunately the FRC rules this season did a very good job of not placing the officials in a position to have to judge intent, at least relative to other years. And while I may personally feel that some rules from Power Up were perhaps too punitive when violated, FRC referees have neither the responsibility nor the right to adjudicate the merits of any given rule, certainly not in the middle of a match. There will always be these debates, and always be people who will disagree about how harsh or how permissive the rules are, as they will disagree about scoring balance, game pieces, and themes.

With over 100 FRC events this season, and with 5-7 referees at any given event, the primary objectives are first to be consistent and second to be fair. While the first emphasis (that on consistency) comes up a lot in training, the fact that I emphasize that fairness comes second is wholly my own opinion. This is not because I think that calling penalties is fun, nor is it because I take a particularly punitive philosophy towards gameplay.

Fairness comes second in my book to consistency for two reasons. For one thing, the idea of “fairness” is extremely subjective, where consistency is less so. The second reason is that a high-level of competition brings with it, necessarily, strategies and actions that toe the line between that which is legal and that which is illegal. This is not unique to FRC - the world of professional sports show this obviously. An example, for those of us who are football fans: how often do you hear of great defensive backs knowing how to interfere with receivers juuuuuust enough to not be flagged while still physically hindering the receivers’ ability to make plays? This is true in FRC, as well - good and great teams play within the rules, but often come very close to violating rules to squeeze out every bit of advantage they are able.

With that knowledge - that high-level competition will bring with it gameplay that is often close to or truly in violation of the rules - how do you approach the responsibility of officiating the game? Particularly if you believe that consistency is paramount, the only reasonable way to approach the job is to follow the letter of the rules to the best of our abilities. Certainly no referee or crew is perfect, but making calls in accordance to the latest, most up-to-date version of the game manual and Q&A System possible is - in my mind, at least - both the best and fairest way to do so.
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Unread 05-03-2018, 09:10 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffB View Post
If I'm remembering the rule you're discussing, it stated you couldn't remove placed gears. You're thinking of something I doubt the rule ever considered. Instead, it was meant to say "you can't place gears to spin one rotor, get the points, and then move them to other rotors." To heavily discourage this, the penalty went straight to a red card.
You're confusing a couple of rules. There was the "pilot eject gear from the Airship" rule (red card), which happened to have an "accidental" clause built in, and "pilot can't remove gear from rotor that has been started" rule (red card) one rule later, which didn't.

And a team did once ask about their red card being the former, when it was actually the latter. They were correct about that clause blocking the card... had it applied in their case.


All your other points about same are correct.
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Unread 05-03-2018, 11:43 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by alst View Post
I do share some sentiments with Joe here - I think it's pretty clear what G05 was supposed to apply to (things like deploying mechanisms to block part of the field, conveyor belts to score power cubes, etc.), and most of the G05 red cards issued that I saw were not due to that.
I'd like to point out that ref's have no special knowledge of what a rule is "supposed" to apply to, besides what is written in the manual. They do not have a direct line to the GDC's brain to determine the intent of a rule. They have to enforce the rules as written to the best of their ability. The Manual actually says

Quote:
The intent of this manual is that the text means exactly, and only, what it says. Please avoid interpreting
the text based on assumptions about intent, implementation of past rules, or how a situation might be in
“real life.” There are no hidden requirements or restrictions. If you’ve read everything, you know
everything.
and that statement applies to refs as well. I once had an experience, at an off season event, where the head ref chose to not enforce minor infractions of a rule to "give teams a break". This was their choice, as it was not an official FRC event, so they had the latitude to do what they wanted. The issue was, once that leeway was given, the minor infractions quickly escalated to major infractions, and now we had a problem. If you start enforcing the rule, teams will legitimately be angry because it is inconsistent with earlier matches. If you don't enforce the rule, the situation will continue to escalate and teams will be angry because they were not told in advance the rule would not be enforced. If you tried to only enforce "major" violations, teams are angry because everyone has a different definition of major and you are making it up on the fly. The lesson learned, is the only fair way to play is to enforce the rules as they are written to the best of your ability.

G05 specifically uses the word strategic as the factor in determining a red card. it does not use "intentional" or "consequential" which are qualifiers used elsewhere. If leaving the platform zone while extended to make room for a partner could be considered a strategic act, the ref has to apply the prescribed penalty, in this case a red card. There is no mechanism in the rules for the ref to say, well that may have been strategic but it was not consequential, so I will give a warning instead. Perhaps that is an oversight by the GDC, but I would hope we can all agree that ref's should not make up new penalties or rules on the fly.
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Unread 05-04-2018, 08:44 AM
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Thumbs down Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

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Originally Posted by MarkHamilton View Post
I'd like to point out that ref's have no special knowledge of what a rule is "supposed" to apply to, besides what is written in the manual. They do not have a direct line to the GDC's brain to determine the intent of a rule. They have to enforce the rules as written to the best of their ability
Refs receive training that goes into the subtle details of how rules should be applied. They also pretty clearly look at the outcome of early matches - look at Team Update 13 - and make changes as necessary.
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Unread 05-04-2018, 08:59 AM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

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Originally Posted by Ginger Power View Post
Oh I know that the violation occurred. Just not sure why it was transferred from 5712 to us. Obviously it was a mistake, and probably a miscommunication. It was a very confusing sequence of events for us, especially with a fairly brief turnaround time on our matches.
If it makes you feel any better, they Red carded us in the very next match for the same thing. It was very surprising to us because we'd been doing that exact same thing all season and were never called on it until Worlds (we hadn't read G05 very clearly and didn't realize how strict it was around the platform zone, and apparently neither did any of the refs at any other event we'd been to this season).

We ended up shortening our winch cord to prevent it from happening again, but it still would have been nice if someone had called it at our first event so we could have corrected it earlier, rather than the last event where a red card makes a bigger difference.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pkrishna3082 View Post
We had an alliance partner a few matches later who was dead for all but 30 seconds maybe and also got a red card for G05.
Also us, this was the match I refereed to above. The sitting dead on the field part was apparently due to an autonomous loop that got stuck during the Telop transition. The FTA took a while to get to us (60 seconds into the match) and told us to restart the robot code, which is something we weren't even aware you could/were allowed to do during a match.
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Unread 05-04-2018, 12:04 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboSteve View Post
Refs receive training that goes into the subtle details of how rules should be applied. They also pretty clearly look at the outcome of early matches - look at Team Update 13 - and make changes as necessary.
I won't go into the specifics of the ref training as it is intended to be confidential to the ref community, but it does not tell refs to not enforce the rules as written, it gives guidance on the parts of the rules that are open to interpretation, in the name of consistency, but in all cases the rulebook supersedes any training material.

Team update 13 changes the rules, which is the correct and fair mechanism for correcting when a rule as written has unintended consequences. The ref's who enforce the rules, and the GDC, who create and/or modify the rules as needed, are different people.
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Unread 05-04-2018, 12:18 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffB View Post
For what it's worth, these two things can be a bit contradictory. At a quick glance, it may not seem that way.

Keep in mind, the "fair game" doesn't just apply to a field. During the regular season, it's a constant mess of calibration and balancing. Events across the world are trying to play the same way. We're honestly trying to get calls across every field to be consistent.

At champs, this means a number of calibration conversations to both ensure refs on the same field are calling things similarly as well as each field is matching to the best of our capability.

When you look at that, you need to look at the spirit of the rule and the ability to remain consistent. With a bumper rule, where guidance has always followed the quote you gave here, is there any way to be consistent without adhering to that quote? There was a thread here a while back where a bit of threading coming off a robot was considered part of the bumper and negated a climb. In that conversation, the question was posed. If a thread isn't enough to constitute the bumper being too low, what would be? Two threads? Thirty threads? In order to be consistent across events/fields, it nearly HAS to be absolute. It is or it isn't.

I think you'd have a hard time claiming the flaps aren't a part of the bumper. If you can give me a reasonable argument that suggests this and doesn't put your robot into a number of other rule violations, I'd love to hear it. I'd even be willing to use it in huddles in the future. If you can't find this argument, you're looking at it being part of the bumper. If that's the case, it wasn't high enough to credit a climb.
I interpreted the rule as "what must the manual clarify as 'above the line' to count as a climb". I was unaware of the thread about a thread, and I disagree with that call. I think the spirit of the rule is to make sure teams get up there, and are clearly above the line with their frame. It's unfortunate that bumper flaps, threads, and other bumper material that is hanging loose from the bumper itself is considered grounds to negate a climb. The match I'm referring to is this one. The easiest way to watch the climb is by watching the bottom right camera. I was pretty disappointed with the call, and it's a shame that threading coming off a bumper negated a climb.
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Unread 05-04-2018, 01:11 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

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Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
I interpreted the rule as "what must the manual clarify as 'above the line' to count as a climb". I was unaware of the thread about a thread, and I disagree with that call. I think the spirit of the rule is to make sure teams get up there, and are clearly above the line with their frame. It's unfortunate that bumper flaps, threads, and other bumper material that is hanging loose from the bumper itself is considered grounds to negate a climb. The match I'm referring to is this one. The easiest way to watch the climb is by watching the bottom right camera. I was pretty disappointed with the call, and it's a shame that threading coming off a bumper negated a climb.
Quote:
For each ROBOT fully supported by the SCALE (either directly or transitively) with BUMPERS fully above the BRICKS at T=0, not in direct contact with their PLATFORM, and not at all in the opponent’s PLATFORM ZONE
Given what the rulebook actually says about scoring a climb, can you please tell me how you interpret the "spirit" to have anything to do with the frame of the robot? When it clearly state the location of the bumpers, I would assume it's talking about the bumpers, both in the letter of the rule, and in its spirit.
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Unread 05-04-2018, 02:00 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

41 teams got dq'd at both championships this year
Code:
Archimedes Division	2
Carson Division	        5
Carver Division	        3
Curie Division	        2
Daly Division	        6
Darwin Division	        2
Galileo Division        8
Hopper Division	        2
Newton Division	        5
Roebling Division	1
Tesla Division	        4
Turing Division	        1
From previous years
2017: 7 Teams dq
2016: 29 Teams dq
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Unread 05-04-2018, 02:04 PM
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Re: Most Red Cards on a Worlds Field

Is this typical, or were there a lot more yellow and red cards than normal? I definitely noticed a number of cards on Daly, but I thought maybe it was just a different style of play here than I was used to in Ontario.
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