Go to Post Kickoff features the joys of discovery. Ship date features the fear of utter failure. - Koko Ed [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #121   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2018, 04:11 PM
Ekcrbe's Avatar
Ekcrbe Ekcrbe is offline
MIssin' the MItten
AKA: Erik Boyle
FRC #0395 (2 Train Robotics), FRC #4640 (Metallic Panthers)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 407
Ekcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond reputeEkcrbe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bottenberg View Post
I would argue that all the robots in a match are playing the same game. Both alliances know that there are 8 possibilities for layout of platform ownership, and both do not have access to the information about which layout they will play on until the match starts. Each alliance must prepare for all of the possibilities.

There are plenty of competitive environments where this type of randomness is accepted. Scrabble, poker, whatever. Why not FRC, for just one year?
I don’t find the randomness objectionable at all, actually. It’s that one alliance can have a different experience in a given match than the other alliance. It’s important to remember that you only have four possibilities to consider in autonomous because you can’t reach the opposite switch, and limiting the possibilities so that the two switches are locked to the same side of the field wouldn’t change that. What it would do is ensure that there are no matches where one alliance has its switch and the scale on the same side and the other doesn’t. Whether you prefer one way or the other doesn’t matter to me—all that does is that they are different.
__________________
Four years of FRC 68 Truck Town Thunder
2012 Championship Newton Division Finalists—Thanks 330 and 639 for the Full Court Press! | 2013 Kettering University District Chairman's Award Winners! | 2014 Great Lakes Bay Region District Winners—Thanks 288, 4819, and 5166! | 2014 Waterford District Chairman's Award Winners! | 2014 Michigan FRC State Championship Chairman's Award Winners—Congratulations 33 and 503! | 2015 Center Line District Chairman's Award Winners! | 2015 Lansing District Winners—Thanks 314 and 1684! | 2015 FIRST in Michigan District Championship Chairman's Award Winners—Congratulations 503 and 2137!


Reply With Quote
  #122   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2018, 04:17 PM
Unsung FIRST Hero
JVN JVN is offline
Lead Engineer & Coach
AKA: John Vielkind-Neun
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 3,201
JVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Many of the comments in this thread boil down to: "It's part of the game challenge." That frustrates me a little bit, since it seems like a hand-wave of a larger more philosophical issue.

There is a game design philosophy which goes something like: "Understand the difference between challenges and frustrations. Eliminate frustrations. Do not leave frustrations in place and pretend they're challenges."

IMHO, the randomized positions are a great challenge. The autonomous coordination between three robots is going to be a lot of fun. This challenge is different at different levels of play and scales in really cute ways.

Right now, I feel like the "inequity" is just a frustration. It won't be the first time a world champion had to overcome something like this and it won't be the last.

(I was rooting for the Eh-Team in 2012 and I was sad they couldn't overcome the "hacking" challenge of Einstein 2012.)

-JVN

PS - Interestingly the first person I heard talk about "frustrations" vs" challenges" was Frank Merrick. I loved it a lot and immediately wrote it down for future philosophizing.
Reply With Quote
  #123   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2018, 04:52 PM
Boltman Boltman is offline
Strategy/Rules/Scouting/Volunteer
AKA: Tom Byrne
FRC #5137 (Iron Kodiaks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,362
Boltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant future
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

If its truly random I personally have no problem with it. One of those deal with it , like teams/audience selecting defenses in SH asymmetrically.

If it is not truly random and favors certain teams more than random should, then I have a problem with it.
A powerhouse getting lined up lights over and over and their opponents always mixed never favorable etc.

The part that makes it better is starting positions are not fixed..so you could weight one side heavy or split your alliance, of course in theory you are betting the lights will be in your favor.
__________________


Iron Kodiaks Team #5137 San Marcos, CA
2018 Orange County Elimination Alliance (5477.5209) QF
2017 Ventura Captain 3 (8, 3882) QF
2016 Central Valley Captain 2 (973, 2135) SF
2015 Ventura Elimination Alliances (696, 1836) SF
2014 San Diego Rookie All-Star Galileo Division
San Diego (Home regional/practice days) : Not chosen '18 Elimination Alliances:'17 (399, 968) SF ,'16 (1159, 812) SF , '15 (3021, 1772) QF

Volunteer @ Orange County 2016, 2017, 2018 Ventura 2018

Last edited by Boltman : 01-11-2018 at 04:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #124   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2018, 05:00 PM
John Bottenberg John Bottenberg is offline
Unregistered User
AKA: JABot67
FRC #2930 (Sonic Squirrels)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 559
John Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond reputeJohn Bottenberg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN View Post
Many of the comments in this thread boil down to: "It's part of the game challenge." That frustrates me a little bit, since it seems like a hand-wave of a larger more philosophical issue.

There is a game design philosophy which goes something like: "Understand the difference between challenges and frustrations. Eliminate frustrations. Do not leave frustrations in place and pretend they're challenges."

IMHO, the randomized positions are a great challenge. The autonomous coordination between three robots is going to be a lot of fun. This challenge is different at different levels of play and scales in really cute ways.

Right now, I feel like the "inequity" is just a frustration. It won't be the first time a world champion had to overcome something like this and it won't be the last.

(I was rooting for the Eh-Team in 2012 and I was sad they couldn't overcome the "hacking" challenge of Einstein 2012.)

-JVN

PS - Interestingly the first person I heard talk about "frustrations" vs" challenges" was Frank Merrick. I loved it a lot and immediately wrote it down for future philosophizing.
Hi JVN,

It's an honor to have the opportunity to argue with you on the Internet. What are your criteria for something being a frustration as opposed to a challenge? Is it flexible? Do you think it is subjective? I understand that 2012 Einstein was purely a frustration. There have also been a few other instances in FRC history that have been 100% frustrations. Going by my personal philosophy, I tend to assign relatively few things to the pure frustration category compared to my peers on CD. Usually the GDC tries to address these problems immediately; an example being the broken or droopy pegs from last year. Everything that fits in the pure frustration category for me has been something that one should not reasonably expect. Elements of the game that have been laid out in the manual since Kickoff usually do not make the cut. Where do you draw the line?

-John
__________________
FLL Team "Dark Matter": 2003-2005
Robofest Team "Dark Matter": 2005-2008
Team 67 Programmer: 2007-2010
Team 3322 Programming Mentor: 2012-2014
Team 2930 Engineering Mentor: 2015-????
Reply With Quote
  #125   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2018, 05:03 PM
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Petitioning the UN to ban Lythgoe
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Somehow, the entire east coast...
Posts: 4,852
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltman View Post
If it is not truly random and favors certain teams more than random should, then I have a problem with it.
A powerhouse getting lined up lights over and over and their opponents always mixed never favorable etc.
But here's the fun question - how would you tell this given the sample size is rather low?

https://izbicki.me/blog/how-to-cheat...-p-values.html
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #126   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2018, 05:08 PM
Boltman Boltman is offline
Strategy/Rules/Scouting/Volunteer
AKA: Tom Byrne
FRC #5137 (Iron Kodiaks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,362
Boltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant futureBoltman has a brilliant future
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
But here's the fun question - how would you tell this given the sample size is rather low?

https://izbicki.me/blog/how-to-cheat...-p-values.html
A: you can't

One reason I shy away from data scouting, just use it to find outliers my/our eyes may have missed.
__________________


Iron Kodiaks Team #5137 San Marcos, CA
2018 Orange County Elimination Alliance (5477.5209) QF
2017 Ventura Captain 3 (8, 3882) QF
2016 Central Valley Captain 2 (973, 2135) SF
2015 Ventura Elimination Alliances (696, 1836) SF
2014 San Diego Rookie All-Star Galileo Division
San Diego (Home regional/practice days) : Not chosen '18 Elimination Alliances:'17 (399, 968) SF ,'16 (1159, 812) SF , '15 (3021, 1772) QF

Volunteer @ Orange County 2016, 2017, 2018 Ventura 2018
Reply With Quote
  #127   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2018, 06:57 PM
notmattlythgoe's Avatar
notmattlythgoe notmattlythgoe is offline
Flywheel Police
AKA: Matthew Lythgoe
FRC #2363 (Triple Helix)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Newport News, VA
Posts: 2,229
notmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond reputenotmattlythgoe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bottenberg View Post
Hi JVN,

It's an honor to have the opportunity to argue with you on the Internet. What are your criteria for something being a frustration as opposed to a challenge? Is it flexible? Do you think it is subjective? I understand that 2012 Einstein was purely a frustration. There have also been a few other instances in FRC history that have been 100% frustrations. Going by my personal philosophy, I tend to assign relatively few things to the pure frustration category compared to my peers on CD. Usually the GDC tries to address these problems immediately; an example being the broken or droopy pegs from last year. Everything that fits in the pure frustration category for me has been something that one should not reasonably expect. Elements of the game that have been laid out in the manual since Kickoff usually do not make the cut. Where do you draw the line?

-John
You and I have an extremely different definition of "immediately" if you think they immediately fixed the pegs last year.
Reply With Quote
  #128   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2018, 08:18 PM
Bryce2471's Avatar
Bryce2471 Bryce2471 is offline
Alumnus
AKA: Bryce Croucher
FRC #2471 (Team Mean Machine)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Camas, WA
Posts: 652
Bryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond reputeBryce2471 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
As opposed to losing qualification matches and seeding outside of alliance captaincy because of the random qualification schedule?
I don't see how this point supports your argument. I do not find getting a bad qualification schedule fun in the slightest.

In fact, if you have an idea of how to change the qualification schedule generation, to remove some of the randomness while still allowing teams to play with and against a broad variety of other teams, then I suggest that you immediately send your idea to FIRST, and start a thread about it, so we can discuss it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
It is my belief that "reasonably petitioning" something that is a purposeful design of the challenge is a waste of time and energy. I would rather put my time and energy into solving that challenge, or building in a "unfair advantage" into my robot.
Out of curiosity, how do you plan to solve that challenge? I mean this challenge is vary poorly defined, and is random in nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KelleyCook View Post
I agree and the solution is instead of the current three randomizations, you'd have only two: Switch and Scale. The Switch outcome would apply equally to both switches.
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN View Post
Many of the comments in this thread boil down to: "It's part of the game challenge." That frustrates me a little bit, since it seems like a hand-wave of a larger more philosophical issue.

There is a game design philosophy which goes something like: "Understand the difference between challenges and frustrations. Eliminate frustrations. Do not leave frustrations in place and pretend they're challenges."

IMHO, the randomized positions are a great challenge. The autonomous coordination between three robots is going to be a lot of fun. This challenge is different at different levels of play and scales in really cute ways.

Right now, I feel like the "inequity" is just a frustration. It won't be the first time a world champion had to overcome something like this and it won't be the last.

(I was rooting for the Eh-Team in 2012 and I was sad they couldn't overcome the "hacking" challenge of Einstein 2012.)

-JVN

PS - Interestingly the first person I heard talk about "frustrations" vs" challenges" was Frank Merrick. I loved it a lot and immediately wrote it down for future philosophizing.
Thank you for contributing this to the discussion, I feel it helped get to the core of the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bottenberg View Post
Hi JVN,

It's an honor to have the opportunity to argue with you on the Internet. What are your criteria for something being a frustration as opposed to a challenge? Is it flexible? Do you think it is subjective? I understand that 2012 Einstein was purely a frustration. There have also been a few other instances in FRC history that have been 100% frustrations. Going by my personal philosophy, I tend to assign relatively few things to the pure frustration category compared to my peers on CD. Usually the GDC tries to address these problems immediately; an example being the broken or droopy pegs from last year. Everything that fits in the pure frustration category for me has been something that one should not reasonably expect. Elements of the game that have been laid out in the manual since Kickoff usually do not make the cut. Where do you draw the line?

-John
Thank you for this well thought out and worded post. I think you ask an important question.

Here's a counter question for you: What if in the 2016 Stronghold game manual it said that before each match, a coin flip would decide which alliance would select the defenses?

To me, something can be an annoyance for a number of reasons, but the primary cause is when it reduces the impact of teams' efforts on the outcome of the match.

FIRST is a organization formed for the inspiration of its participants. I think it is more inspiring to have teams be more rewarded for their efforts.

TLDR: I'm not a big fan of Yahtzee. I play table tennis, and build robots. I think FRC is more rewarding when it is like table tennis than when it is like Yahtzee .
__________________
2006-2011:
FLL Team Future imagineers
2011-????:
FRC Team Mean Machine
Reply With Quote
  #129   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2018, 10:51 PM
cglrcng cglrcng is offline
Registered User
FRC #0060
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kingman, AZ
Posts: 517
cglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN View Post
Many of the comments in this thread boil down to: "It's part of the game challenge." That frustrates me a little bit, since it seems like a hand-wave of a larger more philosophical issue.

There is a game design philosophy which goes something like: "Understand the difference between challenges and frustrations. Eliminate frustrations. Do not leave frustrations in place and pretend they're challenges."

IMHO, the randomized positions are a great challenge. The autonomous coordination between three robots is going to be a lot of fun. This challenge is different at different levels of play and scales in really cute ways.

Right now, I feel like the "inequity" is just a frustration. It won't be the first time a world champion had to overcome something like this and it won't be the last.

(I was rooting for the Eh-Team in 2012 and I was sad they couldn't overcome the "hacking" challenge of Einstein 2012.)

-JVN

PS - Interestingly the first person I heard talk about "frustrations" vs" challenges" was Frank Merrick. I loved it a lot and immediately wrote it down for future philosophizing.
My new phrase this year will be not that "life isn't fair", but "life isn't always symetric."

Some thought I was earlier barking at the moon. But, they immediately set off on the usual first 3 week mission here played out annually without fail (you can set it like a watch, it is foolproof, it repeats each year, same time, same bat channel, it comes with parsing the game and rules and designing a robot(s)).....to get the GDC IMHO to change the newly designed game and rules to fit their minds eye robot, game play strategy, to make life or at least the upcoming new, as yet played game, etc., fit their vision of "Fair" instead of approaching it from a huge engineering problem to solve.

Not once, at any time did I ever post the game was unfair, although I knew (assumed), that there were more than 2 randomized plate color choices than the 2 examples shown by the examples given with the game release docs. (and just prodded others to gain the proof asap from use of the Q&A by others). Did they....I'm about to go look at the Q&A for the first time in just a few minutes. ARE THERE 8, OR ARE THERE FEWER FMS POSSIBILLITIES IN THE RANDOMIZATIONS OF PLATE COLORS?

So, I immediately determined for myself what all of the possible random choices for the FMS were, and saw that there were choices that were not symetrical at all. Oh boy, I knew that would lead to RNG convo and debate, cries of "unfairness" would be screamed to the heavens. But, personally I wanted the game played as designed....I only wanted to know that I knew that my assumtion was right, that there were really all 8 possibillities, and not just 2 given in the docs, so all would be on a level playing field, since I knew some would just see the 2 examples, and start designing and strategizing from there, and be highly surprised to find out later that wasn't true at all.

It was at the randomization by FMS plate colors leading to asymetrical field choices realization that I noticed Woody's part in the game release video on GP was so highly stressed this year....Wow, both team collaboration, Gracious Professionalism, the number of auto completed code choices to cover every possible base along with time delay choices being applied thereafter, coopertition, work involved to avoid simple auto collisions among both friendly and unfriendly robots (some very nasty imaginative auto routine game play scenarios were playing out in my head that were all leading to collisions and it was stuck on a repeating loop I just couldn't get away from, and some were really bad with super bad results). One thing I knew though was that GP would never be, or has not been tested before, like it will be this year.

I never started a thread, but immediately joined 1 that had to do with the randomnization by FMS, now my mission was.....Get the question answered early (by others using the Q&A), "Are there more choices for the FMS than the 2 given examples?", not necessarily using that wording. Get people to think hard how this will effect game play, add to a conversation about solutions.

At that time, while I read A04 in first read through of the 33 pg rulebook (my thanks to the poster that called my attention to that rule at that point in time), it had not yet sunk in, so in my minds eye, there were 6 targets in auto, as the opposing alliances switch was incorrectly in play (in both my head, and my possible game play strategy).....A04 made the game so much easier to play, but it was still very difficult, and that minds eye loop was still very destructive endings in most auto scenarios.

Robot placement will not be the deciding factor.....randomization means lots of auto code choices (to cover all known bases), add in very early collaborations (to determine how best to avoid both robot collisions and messed up auto routines and worse), a ton of luck in both collision avoidance and random FMS choices, and timed robot move delays (the key to a great auto this year if you collaborate early), since points made accrue per second from time of ownership, until time of ownership interruption by the opposition, throughout the entire game. IE: Gain early ownership of either your own switch or the scale or both, beat the opposition up by always adding more moment helped weight through proper but faster placement. AND keep adding more than they can place in the right moment positions, to foil the possible interruptions of ownership, and those points keep acruing at albeit different rates, possibly using Power Ups.

All of a sudden my mind started playing scenarios that resulted in a lot fewer mishaps, and I began seeing points acruing. The collisions were still happening, but a lot less often. But group think is necessary from the start. Now, I included a whole lot of very early collusion amongst alliance partners and a plan into my equation.

AND, this point in the season does not necessarily start with group think except here on CD, and usually that is directed at getting rules changed to suit only those who participate here, but affect all everywhere that play the game throughout the season and beyond. But....that isn't my mission, now or any year.

(Later when practical field applications come into play, I'll admit it will/may from a mechanical field repairing aspect maybe....IE: in 2015 the tape on the upper seams on the scoring platforms led to issues that could not be kept up with from a realistic game play, and field repair aspect, since colored tape itself, and repair time is/are a finite resource(s), I did ask personally by mail in 2015 weeks before champs, for the GRC to highly consider doing away with that aspect (white tape on upper scoring platform seams), for Champs.

(Reasons being many, they were affecting some robots that were bottoming out at the seams, tape was tearing and bunching up affecting same and other robots, field repair was constantly falling behind and affecting match flow, tape in a specific color is finite at events, expensive, and though each day we retaped each platform before any matches started, it required either someone or many someones to stay late the night before, or many to arrive early the next day...rest time for field crews is also finite from day to day...they need the rest, field was unsightly by lunch time and field crew needed that lunch break too, end of day the platforms were a super unsightly mess, the absolute known factor by that time (after having personally participated in 4 like events from field build to repair, to teardown, and then we would be on to Champs soon.

Known factor by then, was that the ramps and platforms were held down so well to the carpet by the velcro, that they were very difficult to remove during teardown, the tape on those seams were not a ref. related marker line, and they wouldnt be needed to actually keep the pcs from moving on the field, so became more of a hinderance to robots and an eye appeal and repair nightmare that could have been avoided .....they (the GDC), didn't change anything for Champs! The people available were more, the tape provided plentiful, no changes, no hitches....But, from the pics I've so far seen thus far this year they seemed to have done so on a very similar platform (done away with upper seam tape on the platforms). I have yet to find the time to verify the info on the field marking info I have now downloaded...yet.

Last year, I made no personal rec. on the oh so often damaged springs, that caused huge field repair issues, both in time to replace or repair, and finite resources, that I just tossed in the towel and decided personally to not participate further (I just decided not to submit my name to volunteer list at champs, and that was only a single small reason, not all of the reasons, I was physically pretty beat up too).

Oh, I had ideas on different spring replacement materials last year, they would never have considered them, too much was already invested and teams were too highly invested in counting on those springs being as designed, it just wasn't adequately provided on our truck in week 6 at the extremely high rate they were being damaged, and our week 2 truck contained plenty. Those were just not the same field. Somebody just simply dropped the ball by not reporting, the materials were costly to secure, cut down and and ship, or something, but we seemed to just suffer spring damage at a much higher rate, 3 in match 1 alone told me we were headed for trouble....teams after a meeting following alliance picks bailed us out thank the lord.

What I'm getting at......Play the game as designed. Fair or unfair, symetric or asymetric, biased or not in your mind, work around the issues, by being prepared, and use the time spent crying " the game is unfair, so the rules need to be changed", instead to find solutions.

People laughed at me from first match to last match in 2015 (Recycle Rush), that I helped onfield, because every single match before the match started, I made a usual full walk around the field, and almost touched every stack of totes adjusting all so they were like positioned on both ends of the field match after match (usually not finishing both ends until just before match start, but always attempting to have my hands or feet out of the players area, or the arena, and off those game pcs. before match start or even go). Totes and litter not inside the taped arena lines, not outside the arena lines, but positioned on the lines as the game setup diagram defined the game pcs starting positioning.

You see, it took the whole crew, often field reset, supervisor, maint. and repair, and often the help of the refs. & scorers to get all those totes back there fast to make match turnaround match the schedule of 7 mins., and they were often easily out of position either inside or outside the lines due to many people hastily handling tons of weight over and over fast.

That walk and final adjusting made that element of game play fair for all, is all. That way every team member on every alliance participating knew what to expect at the start of the match, it was equal for all participating....at least in every match that i was present and onfield for.

My mission (as always), was to train others to do the same when I wasn't there. (Once at Champs, it took a little while, but someone came to me asking, why I did that walk and adjusted both ends myself every match, as the rest of the crew was resting, and some were just thinking it was my type A idiocy winning out over my poor tired legs.

Others though were thinking I was just duplicating their work, some were laughing, some were actually not happy with me I later found out, and I didn't even know it (to be totally honest it wouldn't have made a difference, so many people were involved that it was impossible to explain to a volunteer crew vs. an employee crew made up of both adults and students, that it was just easier to make the walk, getting the weight there to adjust was really the hardest part).

When in fact, all I was doing is assuring that each team, that spent tens of thousands of dollars and an untold value of man hrs. invested to play the game, had an equal chance every time they entered the field of play.

So, I said walk with me, you will soon see why. He did, halfway through the very next walk he said oh my....I never realized just how far off we are! And from there on out, my walking reduced a bunch, my breaks became a lot more regular, as he was doing it from there on out, and he was training others to do so, before I knew it, since i was actually a scorer there, there were many doing it, so I could actually stop that walk.

But, working within the rules of the game to create that kind of fairness factor I agree with, not changing the rules of the designed game, as long as theoretically each has the same possible chance of randomization of plate colors, symetrical or asymetrical....before each has chosen their own robot position, and the untold variation of angles and directions associated with said placement(s). Each does in this game also.

As I pointed out earlier....the farthest known auto start to target track path point is Robot Right or Robot Left, both touching the alliance wall, to Scale on opposite side of the field.....Your robot and angle placement choices will decide, whether that path to target, along with the 1 of 8 FMS data delivered choices in any particular match, along with robot speed of task chosen, and how well you perform those tasks, takes a longer or shorter path, and how quickly and acurately you make the attempt to do so.

8 random choices, 4 targets, tons of robot start positions and angles plus directions, multiple possible paths to each target, a lot of ways to accomplish best collaboration..early or late, fine tuning of adjustments, and robot design to accomplish the auto tasks.....that can all lead to many accrued points throughout each match.

Has auto ever been so difficult or, or meant so much, or has GP ever been so stressed if (when), failure occurs? Yes, dumping a cube into switch or scale seems easy, the targets are huge, the paths are defined, the points start accruing as soon as you establish ownership, and continue until ownership is interrupted.....for 2 mins 30 seconds each second at 2 or 1 point, or even doubled per second if a Power Up is played at the right time.

Those moving to target first are not established winners (though they could be), those with the shortest route to the chosen target are not established winners (though they could be), those getting cubes in a target first....and I'll go even so far as to say gaining ownership first, or even accidentally hitting the wrong colored target that cannot be affected by the opposition under auto legally...are not established winners (though they could be), those properly achieving ownership most often first won't even be proven winners (but they could be)...those performing the absolute certain task of cube(s) to target and avoiding collisions with other bots and field elements, even first every time in correct randomized color plate without fail are not proven winners (but they could be).

Those ending up claiming ownership the longest (for the 3 major field elements), and holding it (or denial of said same), uninterrupted for the longest period of time will be. OR......too many other variables on transferring of ownership (or the null balance of each, denying either or both sides points), possible use of available Power Ups, that are sure to take place thereafter! (The winner and controller most often just may be the 1 depositing last! 1st cube depositor may win the battle, but lose the points war!)

Nope....the game is neither fair, nor always symetric....it is what it is. The BOSS is biiiig, the Ape in Donkey Kong was Huge......But, nobody ever whined about that! The field of play in Pac Man or Mrs. Pac Man wasn't symetric, and that big circle gobbling up those ghosts was actually faster than the ghosts....but we certainly didn't whine that they should change the rules....we just kept on feeding quarters into that great game and worked out better solutions.

How much closer to a vintage arcade type video game come to life as an FRC real life game could the GDC have designed? MY HAT IS Completely OFF TO THEM!.....And I was in the camp of not a real fan at the end of the game reveal (60 game pcs instead, my hope of 1 to 6 game pcs. gone, up in game design smoke, and the ease of explaining the game to a non-involved spectator....oh ,my). But that is just personal bias based on (personal choice), work involved, and a usual issue.

GDC, you did a Great Job!

(I Looked at the Evergreen Field Plans, still no pinning of the corners (not talking about those big vertical pins now, takling about pinning every dowel that inserts into either square or round tubing on driver station walls cap, and uprights, both vertical or horizontal), where portal stations meet the driver station walls on those now increased to 4- 45 degree angles?) That becomes an issue on some floor types as the robots hammer the walls repeatedly at high speed at game pc delivery stations, carpet slides on slick polished concrete under heavy perimiter objects, carpet stretches leading to humps both on and off field, corners separate, energy gets transferred across drivers station walls at every joint effectively pulling that heavy wall apart, other down facing welded pins holding up driver station walls stress huge and actually break off. (Coming out of the crates, I personally had to have 6 of those down facing top cap dowel pins repaired before field build could be completed 2 week 2, 4 week 6 on 2 different fields, and 1 in October for an offseason event). Those were all damaged by large repeated forces being exerted by robots on 45 degree loading stations as the placement of the repairs are always near those ends.

Just saying here, yeah we can add the strap solution used last year on troubled fields, or, once those big alum. dowel pins are slid into place, holes could be drilled into each and a simple McMaster Carr quick release pin could be inserted into each hole of your choice style and the issue could simply be resolved for good (yes, more hardware, less repairs later).

No, the issue does not appear everywhere at every event, not even where venues have a same type floor type.....But, when a week 2 field comes out of the crates with 2 dowel pins that are supposed to be attached to the upper glass rail and are no longer welded to the rail, and a week 6 different field, that number is increased to 4, and when you (a member of the GDC), witness it first hand, happening every match, sometimes on both ends of the field same time match after match (field corners completely separating and pulling alliance station walls apart, when time is at a premium to all involved), the time and energy involved necessary to repair it delaying matches, and a strapping solution is required to be requested, that did work for the balance of that event and another.

Then the very next year follow it up by doubling the corners affected by design, and you do not work out a viable permanent solution.....oy. (No biggie, we know where your straps are, and an easy solution is approved already if needed, though we will get prior permission to use the solution again if necessary). Our priorities in practical useage are not necessarily your priorities in game design.

And, that was my point....Not to whine, but to both offer a solution, and have an easy solution ready to an issue that existed and I expect will double this year. (Ok, to offer a pre-emptive permanent solution also for the future, though I could forsee easy removal issues may prevent them from accepting the solution outright as stressed pins may be harder to remove, a special pry tool or 2, could be added to each tool crate, lost pins could be tethered, etc....more hardware equals more shipping wt.).

While they could meet and make a decision to unload every crate affected and start drilling before shipping, buy those pins, include them in the shipment, I'd assume that the fields are completed or very near completion. I in no way expect that to be done. It wasn't on the plans, so I wouldn't expect it to be changed now.

If it (the issue), does not appear this year, I will be pleasantly surprised. I expect if it does, it will happen on polished concrete venue floors with no underlayment. As the carpet backing in and around those stations on 45s, turns to a fine powdery dust under the carpet, it lubricates the areas between carpet and floor, then robots continue to slam the walls outward, force is exerted on the field perimiter, and the hook velcro beneath most field permiter sections attached to carpet stretches carpet due to the forces, and the walls start pulling outward.

Humps in the carpet behind the walls is a great indicator that the issue is happening, walls separating shows it is happening greatly. When it happens every match....you have a problem looking for a permanent solution. There may already be one....I have yet to download and look at the field build instructions for field setup crews, so they may have repurposed last years solution. They just didn't use my suggested solution as seen by the Evergreen field mfg. plans.

Play the game as designed. And if you see a guy (or anyone else), walking to check the stacks of cubes outside the field, he's just making sure it is fair for all, he's already checked those inside the field for proper location and logo up positioning.

AND MOST IMPOTANTLY, Those cubes outside the field at each portal....KEEP YOUR HANDS and other body parts OFF THEM BETWEEN THE LAST TOUCH BY FIELD RESET, THRU AUTO START AND UNTIL TELEOP STARTS.....please see the rules as to why, or suffer the penalty forewarned. (IE: Those are not elbow resting stacks for bored human portal players, drivers station resting areas, etc.). They are well placed game pcs. ready for fair play....Just a friendly reminder, not a nag. (That, I'll leave up to the zebras).

You will be touching them to preload a cube.....maybe. (Field reset training has not yet taken place, so I'm guessing....But a rule does exist dealing with my bolded statement above). Go find it. AWWWW, thats not fair......lol....and the stacks side to side will also be 1 short of symetric too (on each end), if all 3 robots preload a cube....lol.
Reply With Quote
  #130   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-12-2018, 12:36 AM
Unsung FIRST Hero
JVN JVN is offline
Lead Engineer & Coach
AKA: John Vielkind-Neun
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 3,201
JVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by cglrcng View Post
My new phrase this year will be not that "life isn't fair", but "life isn't always symetric."

Some thought I was earlier barking at the moon. But, they immediately set off on the usual first 3 week mission here played out annually without fail (you can set it like a watch, it is foolproof, it repeats each year, same time, same bat channel, it comes with parsing the game and rules and designing a robot(s)).....to get the GDC IMHO to change the newly designed game and rules to fit their minds eye robot, game play strategy, to make life or at least the upcoming new, as yet played game, etc., fit their vision of "Fair" instead of approaching it from a huge engineering problem to solve.

Not once, at any time did I ever post the game was unfair, although I knew (assumed), that there were more than 2 randomized plate color choices than the 2 examples shown by the examples given with the game release docs. (and just prodded others to gain the proof asap from use of the Q&A by others). Did they....I'm about to go look at the Q&A for the first time in just a few minutes. ARE THERE 8, OR ARE THERE FEWER FMS POSSIBILLITIES IN THE RANDOMIZATIONS OF PLATE COLORS?

So, I immediately determined for myself what all of the possible random choices for the FMS were, and saw that there were choices that were not symetrical at all. Oh boy, I knew that would lead to RNG convo and debate, cries of "unfairness" would be screamed to the heavens. But, personally I wanted the game played as designed....I only wanted to know that I knew that my assumtion was right, that there were really all 8 possibillities, and not just 2 given in the docs, so all would be on a level playing field, since I knew some would just see the 2 examples, and start designing and strategizing from there, and be highly surprised to find out later that wasn't true at all.

It was at the randomization by FMS plate colors leading to asymetrical field choices realization that I noticed Woody's part in the game release video on GP was so highly stressed this year....Wow, both team collaboration, Gracious Professionalism, the number of auto completed code choices to cover every possible base along with time delay choices being applied thereafter, coopertition, work involved to avoid simple auto collisions among both friendly and unfriendly robots (some very nasty imaginative auto routine game play scenarios were playing out in my head that were all leading to collisions and it was stuck on a repeating loop I just couldn't get away from, and some were really bad with super bad results). One thing I knew though was that GP would never be, or has not been tested before, like it will be this year.

I never started a thread, but immediately joined 1 that had to do with the randomnization by FMS, now my mission was.....Get the question answered early (by others using the Q&A), "Are there more choices for the FMS than the 2 given examples?", not necessarily using that wording. Get people to think hard how this will effect game play, add to a conversation about solutions.

At that time, while I read A04 in first read through of the 33 pg rulebook (my thanks to the poster that called my attention to that rule at that point in time), it had not yet sunk in, so in my minds eye, there were 6 targets in auto, as the opposing alliances switch was incorrectly in play (in both my head, and my possible game play strategy).....A04 made the game so much easier to play, but it was still very difficult, and that minds eye loop was still very destructive endings in most auto scenarios.

Robot placement will not be the deciding factor.....randomization means lots of auto code choices (to cover all known bases), add in very early collaborations (to determine how best to avoid both robot collisions and messed up auto routines and worse), a ton of luck in both collision avoidance and random FMS choices, and timed robot move delays (the key to a great auto this year if you collaborate early), since points made accrue per second from time of ownership, until time of ownership interruption by the opposition, throughout the entire game. IE: Gain early ownership of either your own switch or the scale or both, beat the opposition up by always adding more moment helped weight through proper but faster placement. AND keep adding more than they can place in the right moment positions, to foil the possible interruptions of ownership, and those points keep acruing at albeit different rates, possibly using Power Ups.

All of a sudden my mind started playing scenarios that resulted in a lot fewer mishaps, and I began seeing points acruing. The collisions were still happening, but a lot less often. But group think is necessary from the start. Now, I included a whole lot of very early collusion amongst alliance partners and a plan into my equation.

AND, this point in the season does not necessarily start with group think except here on CD, and usually that is directed at getting rules changed to suit only those who participate here, but affect all everywhere that play the game throughout the season and beyond. But....that isn't my mission, now or any year.

(Later when practical field applications come into play, I'll admit it will/may from a mechanical field repairing aspect maybe....IE: in 2015 the tape on the upper seams on the scoring platforms led to issues that could not be kept up with from a realistic game play, and field repair aspect, since colored tape itself, and repair time is/are a finite resource(s), I did ask personally by mail in 2015 weeks before champs, for the GRC to highly consider doing away with that aspect (white tape on upper scoring platform seams), for Champs.

(Reasons being many, they were affecting some robots that were bottoming out at the seams, tape was tearing and bunching up affecting same and other robots, field repair was constantly falling behind and affecting match flow, tape in a specific color is finite at events, expensive, and though each day we retaped each platform before any matches started, it required either someone or many someones to stay late the night before, or many to arrive early the next day...rest time for field crews is also finite from day to day...they need the rest, field was unsightly by lunch time and field crew needed that lunch break too, end of day the platforms were a super unsightly mess, the absolute known factor by that time (after having personally participated in 4 like events from field build to repair, to teardown, and then we would be on to Champs soon.

Known factor by then, was that the ramps and platforms were held down so well to the carpet by the velcro, that they were very difficult to remove during teardown, the tape on those seams were not a ref. related marker line, and they wouldnt be needed to actually keep the pcs from moving on the field, so became more of a hinderance to robots and an eye appeal and repair nightmare that could have been avoided .....they (the GDC), didn't change anything for Champs! The people available were more, the tape provided plentiful, no changes, no hitches....But, from the pics I've so far seen thus far this year they seemed to have done so on a very similar platform (done away with upper seam tape on the platforms). I have yet to find the time to verify the info on the field marking info I have now downloaded...yet.

Last year, I made no personal rec. on the oh so often damaged springs, that caused huge field repair issues, both in time to replace or repair, and finite resources, that I just tossed in the towel and decided personally to not participate further (I just decided not to submit my name to volunteer list at champs, and that was only a single small reason, not all of the reasons, I was physically pretty beat up too).

Oh, I had ideas on different spring replacement materials last year, they would never have considered them, too much was already invested and teams were too highly invested in counting on those springs being as designed, it just wasn't adequately provided on our truck in week 6 at the extremely high rate they were being damaged, and our week 2 truck contained plenty. Those were just not the same field. Somebody just simply dropped the ball by not reporting, the materials were costly to secure, cut down and and ship, or something, but we seemed to just suffer spring damage at a much higher rate, 3 in match 1 alone told me we were headed for trouble....teams after a meeting following alliance picks bailed us out thank the lord.

What I'm getting at......Play the game as designed. Fair or unfair, symetric or asymetric, biased or not in your mind, work around the issues, by being prepared, and use the time spent crying " the game is unfair, so the rules need to be changed", instead to find solutions.

People laughed at me from first match to last match in 2015 (Recycle Rush), that I helped onfield, because every single match before the match started, I made a usual full walk around the field, and almost touched every stack of totes adjusting all so they were like positioned on both ends of the field match after match (usually not finishing both ends until just before match start, but always attempting to have my hands or feet out of the players area, or the arena, and off those game pcs. before match start or even go). Totes and litter not inside the taped arena lines, not outside the arena lines, but positioned on the lines as the game setup diagram defined the game pcs starting positioning.

You see, it took the whole crew, often field reset, supervisor, maint. and repair, and often the help of the refs. & scorers to get all those totes back there fast to make match turnaround match the schedule of 7 mins., and they were often easily out of position either inside or outside the lines due to many people hastily handling tons of weight over and over fast.

That walk and final adjusting made that element of game play fair for all, is all. That way every team member on every alliance participating knew what to expect at the start of the match, it was equal for all participating....at least in every match that i was present and onfield for.

My mission (as always), was to train others to do the same when I wasn't there. (Once at Champs, it took a little while, but someone came to me asking, why I did that walk and adjusted both ends myself every match, as the rest of the crew was resting, and some were just thinking it was my type A idiocy winning out over my poor tired legs.

Others though were thinking I was just duplicating their work, some were laughing, some were actually not happy with me I later found out, and I didn't even know it (to be totally honest it wouldn't have made a difference, so many people were involved that it was impossible to explain to a volunteer crew vs. an employee crew made up of both adults and students, that it was just easier to make the walk, getting the weight there to adjust was really the hardest part).

When in fact, all I was doing is assuring that each team, that spent tens of thousands of dollars and an untold value of man hrs. invested to play the game, had an equal chance every time they entered the field of play.

So, I said walk with me, you will soon see why. He did, halfway through the very next walk he said oh my....I never realized just how far off we are! And from there on out, my walking reduced a bunch, my breaks became a lot more regular, as he was doing it from there on out, and he was training others to do so, before I knew it, since i was actually a scorer there, there were many doing it, so I could actually stop that walk.

But, working within the rules of the game to create that kind of fairness factor I agree with, not changing the rules of the designed game, as long as theoretically each has the same possible chance of randomization of plate colors, symetrical or asymetrical....before each has chosen their own robot position, and the untold variation of angles and directions associated with said placement(s). Each does in this game also.

As I pointed out earlier....the farthest known auto start to target track path point is Robot Right or Robot Left, both touching the alliance wall, to Scale on opposite side of the field.....Your robot and angle placement choices will decide, whether that path to target, along with the 1 of 8 FMS data delivered choices in any particular match, along with robot speed of task chosen, and how well you perform those tasks, takes a longer or shorter path, and how quickly and acurately you make the attempt to do so.

8 random choices, 4 targets, tons of robot start positions and angles plus directions, multiple possible paths to each target, a lot of ways to accomplish best collaboration..early or late, fine tuning of adjustments, and robot design to accomplish the auto tasks.....that can all lead to many accrued points throughout each match.

Has auto ever been so difficult or, or meant so much, or has GP ever been so stressed if (when), failure occurs? Yes, dumping a cube into switch or scale seems easy, the targets are huge, the paths are defined, the points start accruing as soon as you establish ownership, and continue until ownership is interrupted.....for 2 mins 30 seconds each second at 2 or 1 point, or even doubled per second if a Power Up is played at the right time.

Those moving to target first are not established winners (though they could be), those with the shortest route to the chosen target are not established winners (though they could be), those getting cubes in a target first....and I'll go even so far as to say gaining ownership first, or even accidentally hitting the wrong colored target that cannot be affected by the opposition under auto legally...are not established winners (though they could be), those properly achieving ownership most often first won't even be proven winners (but they could be)...those performing the absolute certain task of cube(s) to target and avoiding collisions with other bots and field elements, even first every time in correct randomized color plate without fail are not proven winners (but they could be).

Those ending up claiming ownership the longest (for the 3 major field elements), and holding it (or denial of said same), uninterrupted for the longest period of time will be. OR......too many other variables on transferring of ownership (or the null balance of each, denying either or both sides points), possible use of available Power Ups, that are sure to take place thereafter! (The winner and controller most often just may be the 1 depositing last! 1st cube depositor may win the battle, but lose the points war!)

Nope....the game is neither fair, nor always symetric....it is what it is. The BOSS is biiiig, the Ape in Donkey Kong was Huge......But, nobody ever whined about that! The field of play in Pac Man or Mrs. Pac Man wasn't symetric, and that big circle gobbling up those ghosts was actually faster than the ghosts....but we certainly didn't whine that they should change the rules....we just kept on feeding quarters into that great game and worked out better solutions.

How much closer to a vintage arcade type video game come to life as an FRC real life game could the GDC have designed? MY HAT IS Completely OFF TO THEM!.....And I was in the camp of not a real fan at the end of the game reveal (60 game pcs instead, my hope of 1 to 6 game pcs. gone, up in game design smoke, and the ease of explaining the game to a non-involved spectator....oh ,my). But that is just personal bias based on (personal choice), work involved, and a usual issue.

GDC, you did a Great Job!

(I Looked at the Evergreen Field Plans, still no pinning of the corners (not talking about those big vertical pins now, takling about pinning every dowel that inserts into either square or round tubing on driver station walls cap, and uprights, both vertical or horizontal), where portal stations meet the driver station walls on those now increased to 4- 45 degree angles?) That becomes an issue on some floor types as the robots hammer the walls repeatedly at high speed at game pc delivery stations, carpet slides on slick polished concrete under heavy perimiter objects, carpet stretches leading to humps both on and off field, corners separate, energy gets transferred across drivers station walls at every joint effectively pulling that heavy wall apart, other down facing welded pins holding up driver station walls stress huge and actually break off. (Coming out of the crates, I personally had to have 6 of those down facing top cap dowel pins repaired before field build could be completed 2 week 2, 4 week 6 on 2 different fields, and 1 in October for an offseason event). Those were all damaged by large repeated forces being exerted by robots on 45 degree loading stations as the placement of the repairs are always near those ends.

Just saying here, yeah we can add the strap solution used last year on troubled fields, or, once those big alum. dowel pins are slid into place, holes could be drilled into each and a simple McMaster Carr quick release pin could be inserted into each hole of your choice style and the issue could simply be resolved for good (yes, more hardware, less repairs later).

No, the issue does not appear everywhere at every event, not even where venues have a same type floor type.....But, when a week 2 field comes out of the crates with 2 dowel pins that are supposed to be attached to the upper glass rail and are no longer welded to the rail, and a week 6 different field, that number is increased to 4, and when you (a member of the GDC), witness it first hand, happening every match, sometimes on both ends of the field same time match after match (field corners completely separating and pulling alliance station walls apart, when time is at a premium to all involved), the time and energy involved necessary to repair it delaying matches, and a strapping solution is required to be requested, that did work for the balance of that event and another.

Then the very next year follow it up by doubling the corners affected by design, and you do not work out a viable permanent solution.....oy. (No biggie, we know where your straps are, and an easy solution is approved already if needed, though we will get prior permission to use the solution again if necessary). Our priorities in practical useage are not necessarily your priorities in game design.

And, that was my point....Not to whine, but to both offer a solution, and have an easy solution ready to an issue that existed and I expect will double this year. (Ok, to offer a pre-emptive permanent solution also for the future, though I could forsee easy removal issues may prevent them from accepting the solution outright as stressed pins may be harder to remove, a special pry tool or 2, could be added to each tool crate, lost pins could be tethered, etc....more hardware equals more shipping wt.).

While they could meet and make a decision to unload every crate affected and start drilling before shipping, buy those pins, include them in the shipment, I'd assume that the fields are completed or very near completion. I in no way expect that to be done. It wasn't on the plans, so I wouldn't expect it to be changed now.

If it (the issue), does not appear this year, I will be pleasantly surprised. I expect if it does, it will happen on polished concrete venue floors with no underlayment. As the carpet backing in and around those stations on 45s, turns to a fine powdery dust under the carpet, it lubricates the areas between carpet and floor, then robots continue to slam the walls outward, force is exerted on the field perimiter, and the hook velcro beneath most field permiter sections attached to carpet stretches carpet due to the forces, and the walls start pulling outward.

Humps in the carpet behind the walls is a great indicator that the issue is happening, walls separating shows it is happening greatly. When it happens every match....you have a problem looking for a permanent solution. There may already be one....I have yet to download and look at the field build instructions for field setup crews, so they may have repurposed last years solution. They just didn't use my suggested solution as seen by the Evergreen field mfg. plans.

Play the game as designed. And if you see a guy (or anyone else), walking to check the stacks of cubes outside the field, he's just making sure it is fair for all, he's already checked those inside the field for proper location and logo up positioning.

AND MOST IMPOTANTLY, Those cubes outside the field at each portal....KEEP YOUR HANDS and other body parts OFF THEM BETWEEN THE LAST TOUCH BY FIELD RESET, THRU AUTO START AND UNTIL TELEOP STARTS.....please see the rules as to why, or suffer the penalty forewarned. (IE: Those are not elbow resting stacks for bored human portal players, drivers station resting areas, etc.). They are well placed game pcs. ready for fair play....Just a friendly reminder, not a nag. (That, I'll leave up to the zebras).

You will be touching them to preload a cube.....maybe. (Field reset training has not yet taken place, so I'm guessing....But a rule does exist dealing with my bolded statement above). Go find it. AWWWW, thats not fair......lol....and the stacks side to side will also be 1 short of symetric too (on each end), if all 3 robots preload a cube....lol.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
Reply With Quote
  #131   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-12-2018, 12:52 AM
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is online now
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 21,886
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe View Post
You and I have an extremely different definition of "immediately" if you think they immediately fixed the pegs last year.
You and I have extremely different interpretations of what JVN said.

I see that he said that the GDC tries to fix things like that immediately. You will notice that those darn pegs went through first a fix, then a fix of the fix, then a fix of the fix of the fix.

They tried an immediate fix three times in a row...


I'll also note the pins holding the defenses in, a year before, went through multiple iterations as each new type was found defective.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots; 2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics; 2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk



Reply With Quote
  #132   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-12-2018, 01:00 AM
cglrcng cglrcng is offline
Registered User
FRC #0060
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kingman, AZ
Posts: 517
cglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Look at each of the 8 random possibillities from this angle only.....the usable part of the field during auto at least for each alliance color.....Alliance wall to far Null Zone Lines. (Physically cover up one end of the field in each instance, then cover up the other).

No matter what plate color combo is thrown at you, there are only 4 plates that matter....2 in each random choice will be blue, 2 will be red. FOR EACH ALLIANCE.

After auto, at start of teleop the field will be then either symetrical or asymetrical, that is where all teams will be reactive to what happened during auto, but in most cases game balance is already gone. BUT FOR AUTO, it was 2 blue plates, 2 red plates or 4 total randomized targets you needed to react to.

How "more fair" do you want it?

Trip times will be shorter for 1 alliance you may say on asymetric fields? Trip times from where, the 2 portals (5 or 6 cubes at least in each place from 2 of 4 corners way down field from you physically, no more than 7 each, or no more than 14 total per alliance, but most often 11 max., if all robots preload a cube), or the 10 stacks located right in front of you on the floor next to your switch and theirs, or the fenced 6 each sitting on the floor along the opposite side of the switches?

The game pcs are everywhere, on and off the field at match setup. Your cycle times will vary with tons of variables to begin with. And by the time the field became asymetric due to Rule A04.....your robot(s) are out of position anyway.

I agree, that if you plan on running portal received cubes all the way back to your drivers station to put through the exchange, to receive them later to go to scale, yes its a bit further 1 way than it is the other since the exchange is offset a bit....on both ends, as both are offset right from onfield robot view. Locations are exactly the same as last year, between driver positions 2 and 3 on each end of the field.
Reply With Quote
  #133   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-12-2018, 01:02 AM
Paul Copioli's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero Woodie Flowers Award
Paul Copioli Paul Copioli is offline
President, VEX Robotics, Inc.
FRC #3310 (Black Hawk Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,483
Paul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

I've read this entire thread of fair vs. unfair and have one comment.

I'll tell you right now, if the alliance on my team is on has their switch and scale on the same side and the other alliance does not, then the other alliance will be playing from behind for most of the match. No doubt in my mind.
__________________
In full disclosure I am the President of VEX Robotics, a division of Innovation First International.
Reply With Quote
  #134   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-12-2018, 01:11 AM
cglrcng cglrcng is offline
Registered User
FRC #0060
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kingman, AZ
Posts: 517
cglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond reputecglrcng has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Brevity is JVN, but every year it is the exact same excersize in futility.....Not, how do we play the game as designed, but, how do we get the rules changed to play the game like we wish the game to be played. You can count on it every year like clockwork.
Reply With Quote
  #135   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-12-2018, 01:22 AM
Unsung FIRST Hero
Karthik Karthik is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,591
Karthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfairness in plate assignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN View Post
Brevity is the soul of wit.
I think the TL;DR of his post was “It’s part of the game challenge”, with a bunch of nonsensical filler.
__________________
:: Karthik Kanagasabapathy ::
"Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm" -- R.W. Emerson
My TEDx Talk - The Subtle Secrets of Success

Last edited by Karthik : 01-12-2018 at 01:33 AM. Reason: Clarity
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:38 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi