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Unread 03-07-2017, 01:11 PM
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MN State Tournament

Since the week 1 round of points are out I wanted to see who was on the bubble for qualifying for the state tournament.

Applying this years criteria to last years numbers (36 teams and no 10 point bonus for applying for chairman's) the cut off would have been 31 points. 3750, 5271, and 3102 would have been in with 31 points - 2169 and 2181 would have been out with 31 points.

The other way to look at it is 29 of 36 teams would have qualified based on Duluth last year. This does not include 4607 who is listed as Lake Superior but qualified by being the Chairman's winner at North Star.

So using those two points, it looks like the bubble teams are:
5913 (32 points, 21st place)
2502 (31 points)
3042 (31 points)
5690 (30 points)
2503 (29 points)
3723 (29 points)
2491 (29 points)
3313 (28 points)
2227 (28 points)
6453 (28 points, 30th place)

The points in the bubble area do appear to be down a bit coming out of Duluth this year versus last year. It will be interesting to see if that carries forward or if it means more teams will make it in from later events.

Outlook going forward:
Week 2 - 1 new team will be added to the rankings
Week 3 - 3 new teams
Week 4 - 17 new teams (5 at Wisconsin and 12 at Iowa)
Week 5 - 0 new teams
Week 6 - 74 new teams (32 at North Star and 42 at 10k)
Week 7 - 4 new teams

The number of teams yet to compete is more or less the same as last year. Last year there were 38 at North Star and 45 at 10k. Iowa and Central Illinois are the same. 4 teams used Wisconsin last year. The 1 in Arkansas and 4 at Seven River are new this year.

There are 3 rookie teams yet to compete - this is up from 2 last year.
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Unread 03-07-2017, 01:21 PM
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Re: MN State Tournament

For those wondering, the current rankings are linked from this page: http://mnfirst.org/offseason/mshsl

I think it's premature to say 29/36 will qualify from Duluth, since half the teams in the state haven't played yet

Traditionally, we do get more qualifying teams from Duluth than we do from Minneapolis, as teams that play in both events often "eat up" points in Minneapolis. There are fewer and fewer teams that can get into both Duluth and Minneapolis though, as all 4 events tend to fill up very quickly!
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Unread 03-19-2017, 09:48 PM
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Re: MN State Tournament

The three MN teams that went to Central Illinois all put up scores that should easily land them in the MN state tournament. Using this years scoring/criteria on last years results, at this point last year the top 30 teams would have eventually qualified. The 30th place team is currently 2491 at 29 points.

It took 31 points to make state last year so the scoring is still down. Team 2502 and 3042 both have 31 points and are sitting at 25th and 26th place.

This week is Wisconsin and Iowa with 17 teams being added to the standings. Last year only one team cracked the state tournament from those two tournaments. That seems unlikely to repeat so we will see how things look after next weekend.
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Unread 03-19-2017, 10:41 PM
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Re: MN State Tournament

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Originally Posted by Whatever View Post
This week is Wisconsin and Iowa with 17 teams being added to the standings. Last year only one team cracked the state tournament from those two tournaments. That seems unlikely to repeat so we will see how things look after next weekend.
Here's to that! We hated to miss the party last year, as did I'm sure many other MN teams playing their first event week 4.

Iowa looks to be pretty tough again this year (especially after watching 3528, 1987, and 2410 at Kansas City this weekend), but that doesn't stop us from having high hopes of qualifying this time around.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:59 AM
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Re: MN State Tournament

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Originally Posted by Whatever View Post
The three MN teams that went to Central Illinois all put up scores that should easily land them in the MN state tournament. Using this years scoring/criteria on last years results, at this point last year the top 30 teams would have eventually qualified. The 30th place team is currently 2491 at 29 points.
The rankings were updated at 8:15PM yesterday, and the results you were looking at were the updated ones

2169 gets in based on their Chairman's win (their 53 points would have put them 10th and most likely gotten them in anyways).

2220 got 56 points, landing them in 9th currently, a sure thing to get in.

And 3184 got 48 points, putting them in 12th, also a sure thing to get in.

I hope we get some more teams up there this weekend! After this weekend, we take a break in week 5, then get right back to it with a bunch of teams in weeks 6 and 7!
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Unread 03-25-2017, 07:45 PM
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Re: MN State Tournament

It looks like 3 teams from Iowa and 1 from Wisconsin are in play for MN state. 2500 winning chairman's in Iowa gets an automatic bid. 2220 wins chairman's in Wisconsin but their performance at Central Illinois was already solidly getting them into state. 4536 and 5638 both did enough at Iowa that should put them easily into state. 4198 performance at Wisconsin is a little tighter but probably enough to make state.

Last year the cut off was at 31 points. That is currently the 29th and 30th place teams. Using last year's results on this year's criteria, the top 31 teams at this point last year would have made state. This year has been friendlier to teams going to their first tournament later in the year than last year.

The bubble area to me looks like:
4198 - 33 points - 26th place
4397 - 33 points - 27th place
5913 - 32 points - 28th place
2502 - 31 points - 29th place
3042 - 31 points - 30th place
5690 - 30 points - 31st place
2503 - 29 points - 32nd place
3723 - 29 points - 33rd place
2491 - 29 points - 34th place
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Unread 04-09-2017, 09:04 AM
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Re: MN State Tournament

The week 6 update is already out:
http://mnfirst.org/docs/2017/Week6.pdf

North Star was pretty unfriendly as the semis were owned by second tournament teams.
6749 was able to get to 32 points by being a rookie team playing in elims.

10K was a lot more friendly to teams trying to get to state.
4207 on the winning alliance will easily make state.
3277 and 2181 on the finalist alliance will easily make state.
3630 being the first pick on a high seed semi finalist team will easily make it.
6709 as a high seeding rookie team will easily make state.
4607 as the chairman's winner gets an automatic bid.
That leaves 3278 (the 34th ranked first pick of the semi finalist 8th alliance gets 31 points) as the new 36th ranked team.

There are 4 teams going for their first tournament next weekend at 7 rivers.
That leaves the bubble as:
35th - 6749 (32 points)
36th - 3278 (31 points)

It also means for at least the third year in a row a team that won a regional event as a captain or first pick will not be going to state. 5690 won Iowa as an alliance captain but is in 39th place with 30 points.

Last edited by Whatever : 04-09-2017 at 09:05 AM. Reason: typo
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Unread 04-15-2017, 10:09 PM
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Re: MN State Tournament

Week 7 results are posted:
http://mnfirst.org/docs/2017/Week7.pdf

These *should* be the final rankings!
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Unread 04-15-2017, 11:42 PM
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Re: MN State Tournament

The first 3 teams that didn't qualify are 3 of the best teams in the state. That's pretty frustrating to see. Congrats to all the teams that qualified, it looks like a strong field and should make for some great matches!
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Unread 04-16-2017, 12:45 PM
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Re: MN State Tournament

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Originally Posted by Ginger Power View Post
The first 3 teams that didn't qualify are 3 of the best teams in the state. That's pretty frustrating to see. Congrats to all the teams that qualified, it looks like a strong field and should make for some great matches!
Yeah, it is frustrating when you see great teams not make it in. But you have to draw the line somewhere. We ran the numbers for 30, 36, 39, 40, and 42 teams for a 1-day event last fall, in order to figure out what we could realistically accommodate. We needed to balance cycle time, matches played per team, the schedule, and out-state teams travel time. With what we have this year, we stretched the schedule by an hour in order to add 6 teams. That means we start earlier and end later, so those teams with long drives have to get up earlier to get here, and get home later. It's the best we can do at this point, short of going to a 2-day event. It is a balance between satisfying the teams in the state, keeping the volunteers happy (many of those that do States do 2 regionals plus champs - some even more!), and keeping the sponsoring organization, MSHSL, happy and dedicated to our success. Lets see how the event goes with 36 teams before we ask for more
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Unread 04-16-2017, 09:01 PM
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Re: MN State Tournament

Thank you for considering schedules for outstate teams.

The OtterBots are very excited to be going back to States!!
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Unread 04-16-2017, 11:12 PM
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Re: MN State Tournament

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
Yeah, it is frustrating when you see great teams not make it in. But you have to draw the line somewhere. We ran the numbers for 30, 36, 39, 40, and 42 teams for a 1-day event last fall, in order to figure out what we could realistically accommodate. We needed to balance cycle time, matches played per team, the schedule, and out-state teams travel time. With what we have this year, we stretched the schedule by an hour in order to add 6 teams. That means we start earlier and end later, so those teams with long drives have to get up earlier to get here, and get home later. It's the best we can do at this point, short of going to a 2-day event. It is a balance between satisfying the teams in the state, keeping the volunteers happy (many of those that do States do 2 regionals plus champs - some even more!), and keeping the sponsoring organization, MSHSL, happy and dedicated to our success. Lets see how the event goes with 36 teams before we ask for more
The move to 36 teams was definitely a good one. It'll help to improve the field vs. previous years. I imagine things will go really well despite the long day!

I would be very interested in seeing the results of a poll of teams about adding a day to the State Championship. Adding a day would increase the number of teams we can invite which increases the level of play. It'll also allow us to increase the number of matches each team gets. A second day would distinguish the State Championship from the other offseason events in the state and give it even more prestige for those that qualify.

Many of the teams that I work with (Outstate/"Greater MN" teams) make the Minnesota State Championship their primary goal each season. They hold the event in a high prestige and it's a big deal when they qualify. This is largely because their schools treat state as a big deal which helps the robotics teams gain traction with their school administration as well as other students within the school. I've spoken with students from the same teams, and they're underwhelmed by the current State Championship experience. The feeling of coming off a successful Regional event or in a lot of cases the World Championship and then participating in a single day event will have that effect.

I've also spoken with metro teams that treat the State Championship as "any other offseason event", or a "victory lap".

The common theme between both groups of teams is that all of them (that I've spoken with) are in favor of a 2 day State Championship. The Greater MN teams get to attend an event that matches their expectations, and the Metro teams get an offseason event that is far beyond any other offseason event in MN.

The problems I see with adding a second day are the fact that Greater MN teams now need to find a hotel, there is more effort required by the Key Volunteers, venue availability will be a challenge (especially with all the graduations), and I'm sure I'm missing many more.

There are obviously benefits to adding a second day to the State Championship, and those benefits will come at a reasonably-easy-to-estimate-cost. I think it is worth having a discussion to determine if the benefits are worth that cost.
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Unread 04-17-2017, 09:14 AM
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Re: MN State Tournament

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Originally Posted by Ginger Power View Post
[snip]

There are obviously benefits to adding a second day to the State Championship, and those benefits will come at a reasonably-easy-to-estimate-cost. I think it is worth having a discussion to determine if the benefits are worth that cost.
Ryan, the RPC has this discussion every year. But we aren't the only stakeholders involved. Extending the event to a second day increases the cost to everyone involved - out-state teams need hotels, sponsoring organizations have to dramatically increase their costs to pay for that second day, volunteers need to give up another day. It's not just a question of the benefits being worth the cost - it's also a question of having the resources available to cover the costs. Robotics is still a very young sport in the state, when you compare it to all the other ones MSHSL runs. It's going to take time for us to expand things within their organization, even with how phenomenally generous they've been in their support thus far. I'm sure we'll get to a 2-day tournament at some point, but it will take time.
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Unread 04-17-2017, 09:55 AM
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Re: MN State Tournament

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out-state teams need hotels
Not sure what you mean by this, as all teams have to be in-state. However you raise some valid points.
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Unread 04-17-2017, 10:06 AM
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Re: MN State Tournament

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Originally Posted by pkrishna3082 View Post
Not sure what you mean by this, as all teams have to be in-state. However you raise some valid points.
The term out-state is used to refer to teams that are not from the Twin Cities area.
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