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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:05 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

This was also clarified in a recent Q&A.

Question:
Quote:
Is the act of activating the hopper near the opposing retrieval zone with the intent of obstructing opposing robots' path to their loading station with fuel a violation of G21? Is the act of dumping fuel into a loading station with the intent of obstructing opposing robots' paths to their lift pegs or ropes a violation of G21?
Answer:
Quote:
In and of itself, the act of triggering a HOPPER using it's polycarbonate panel is not a violation of G21 regardless of intent. That being said, ROBOT actions that may be taken after that point involving FUEL (such as herding FUEL into the opponent's RETRIEVAL ZONE) may violate G21 if, in the judgement of the REFEREE/Head REFEREE, the action taken was to amplify a challenge on the FIELD.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:06 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrennanB View Post
I guess we should clarify some things, firstly the penalty has nothing to do with you entering or not entering the loading zone. What do you mean by "retrieval lane" If you mean, not in the RETRIEVAL ZONE, you skim a fine line that might be legal depending on the ref. If you are literally dumping balls in the retrieval zone, it's pretty clearly illegal.
The area around the white line which serves as a choke point for robot entry toward the intake zone. Not in the retrieval zone.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:09 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by seg9585 View Post
The area around the white line which serves as a choke point for robot entry toward the intake zone. Not in the retrieval zone.
In that case it is less obviously illegal, however you walk a very fine line.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:12 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

We used this strategy back in week 2, and while it worked great it didn't occur to any of us about G21. If I do find myself playing defense at our next regional, I definitely won't be purposefully herding fuel into the loading station. But dumping the hoppers is generally just as effective. Because the opponent bots will be driving towards their retrieval zone, and will inevitably end up pushing the balls into their own zone.
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Last edited by dirtbikerxz : 03-20-2017 at 08:21 PM.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:19 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

This was called as G21 at the Dallas regional in semi-finals as a reference point.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:34 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangel View Post
This was also clarified in a recent Q&A.
Thanks for posting this Q&A. So it's apparently a judgement call. And maybe there is a right and a wrong way to do this, but we'll tread lightly in the future with the approach.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:40 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmattin5459 View Post
Well if you have an intake yourselves, it can't happen to you. You can remove the ball pit by running around with your intake.
Or just have bumpers that are close to the ground. Ours are the minimum height allowed (1", I think) and we can just shove balls out of our way as we drive, as can a lot of teams that I saw at Greater DC.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:43 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by qscgy View Post
Or just have bumpers that are close to the ground. Ours are the minimum height allowed (1", I think) and we can just shove balls out of our way as we drive, as can a lot of teams that I saw at Greater DC.
Well, the point here is that you can't shove them out of the way if the are pressed up against the wall in the feeder station. For teams that designed passive gear intakes that only work when they are pressed right up against the wall, this is a huge problem.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:47 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by seg9585 View Post
then ran the intake in reverse in front of the opposing alliance's gear intake zone and in front of opposing robots.
In addition to the G21 discussion, I'd also like to point out the blue box on G23:
Quote:
Originally Posted by G23-bb
For the purposes of FIRST® STEAMWORKS SM, LAUNCHING is defined as shooting in the air, kicking or rolling across the floor with an active mechanism, or throwing in a forceful way.

A ROBOT that has bumped FUEL has not LAUNCHED it.
So pushing fuel with your bumpers is ok. Running your intake backwards is not.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:49 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by qscgy View Post
Or just have bumpers that are close to the ground. Ours are the minimum height allowed (1", I think) and we can just shove balls out of our way as we drive, as can a lot of teams that I saw at Greater DC.
Yes, but many teams end up with a layer of balls between their bot and the feeding slot in the retrieval zone as they aproach the wall. This causes their (sometimes) passive gear collection mechanisms to be too far away for a gear to be delivered. Being the human player for my team, I have seen this happen to many teams and it takes them an extra few seconds to clear the area and line up again.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:50 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by engunneer View Post
In addition to the G21 discussion, I'd also like to point out the blue box on G23:


So pushing fuel with your bumpers is ok. Running your intake backwards is not.
Not necessarily. Controlling a gear element even passively is still controlling the gear element. For example, If a team went to their feeder station, and pushed a pile of 4 gears back to their airship, and picked them up one by one and placed them on pegs, that would be seen as controlling more than 1 gear at a time.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:51 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by AveryLevin. View Post
Yes, but many teams end up with a layer of balls between their bot and the feeding slot in the retrieval zone as they aproach the wall. This causes their (sometimes) passive gear collection mechanisms to be too far away for a gear to be delivered. Being the human player for my team, I have seen this happen to many teams and it takes them an extra few seconds to clear the area and line up again.
I suggest a quick 360 degree spin, that should clear most of the balls away.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 08:57 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz View Post
Not necessarily. Controlling a gear element even passively is still controlling the gear element. For example, If a team went to their feeder station, and pushed a pile of 4 gears back to their airship, and picked them up one by one and placed them on pegs, that would be seen as controlling more than 1 gear at a time.
G23 is about launching balls outside your launchpad, and the blue box helps define that launching includes rolling them with an active mechanism away from your robot. I realize now I should have quoted G23 in addition to the blue box under it for clarity.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 09:04 PM
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by engunneer View Post
G23 is about launching balls outside your launchpad, and the blue box helps define that launching includes rolling them with an active mechanism away from your robot. I realize now I should have quoted G23 in addition to the blue box under it for clarity.
The white line I spoke of was in fact the launchpad line, so G23 does not apply here. I can see how the concern can be related though.
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Re: Very Effective Defense Strategy: "Ball Pitting"

Quote:
Originally Posted by engunneer View Post
G23 is about launching balls outside your launchpad, and the blue box helps define that launching includes rolling them with an active mechanism away from your robot. I realize now I should have quoted G23 in addition to the blue box under it for clarity.
Are you trying to say that as long as you don't use an active mechanism, you are allowed to herd balls to the opponent retrieval zone to directly interfere with their gameplay and thus violating G21? If so, then you are wrong. Because G21 only talks about using field elements to impair opponents, it doesn't talk about HOW you do it.
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