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Unread 03-20-2017, 02:09 PM
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Exclamation Bosch Window/Door Motors

Hi Guys,
Rookie mentor and alum here. I am looking for the part number for some Bosch motors that came in the KOP several years ago. Sorry I don't know the year. They look like Denso window motors with black almost CIM-like motors on them and a shaft rather than a gear. We need to swap out our motors on our climber to get more torque. If you happen to find some spares in your shop, please let me know. I am more than willing to buy them off you and pay next-day shipping!
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Unread 03-20-2017, 02:20 PM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC1AJT View Post
We need to swap out our motors on our climber to get more torque
You can always get more torque by changing gear ratio.

Did you mean more power?

What motor(s) are you presently using?


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Unread 03-20-2017, 02:28 PM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

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Originally Posted by Ether View Post
You can always get more torque by changing gear ratio.

Did you mean more power?

What motor(s) are you presently using?


We currently are using 2 of the Densos on a 12 inch keel roller. No reduction other than the Densos themselves. Gearboxes are an option but it needs to be a quick option as we go to competition again on Friday. The max we ever got up was 2 feet and the rope was in the exact center of the roller. We're seeing very minimal voltage dips so it leads me to believe that the motors just aren't enough. The reason we wanted the Bosch ones was that team 4169 used them at the event in a near-identical design and never had a problem aside from the final match where they stalled due to low voltage (they had broken a battery earlier so were running low).
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Unread 03-20-2017, 02:30 PM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC1AJT View Post
We currently are using 2 of the Densos on a 12 inch keel roller. No reduction other than the Densos themselves. Gearboxes are an option but it needs to be a quick option as we go to competition again on Friday. The max we ever got up was 2 feet and the rope was in the exact center of the roller. We're seeing very minimal voltage dips so it leads me to believe that the motors just aren't enough. The reason we wanted the Bosch ones was that team 4169 used them at the event in a near-identical design and never had a problem aside from the final match where they stalled due to low voltage (they had broken a battery earlier so were running low).
Both the denso motors and van door motors have no real application in FRC anymore. To put it bluntly they are total crap. Both are heavy, hard to interface with, and so low power they aren't even worth bothering with. The two denso motors you're using combined are 1/3 of the power of a BAG motor (which is 40% as much power as a CIM). A van door motor is equivalent power wise to two denso motors.

Both these motors have basically long since been put out to pasture in FRC. I would investigate a mini CIM/775pro solution using VEX versaplanetaries.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 02:31 PM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

It sounds like you're looking for the Bosch Van Door Motor. This post by Nate Laverdure might help.

EDIT - I agree that the modern motors/gearbox combinations are probably a better choice for what you're doing. But if you're still wanting to use the van door motors, read through the entire thread I linked to. There are some discrepancies I missed in the first post that are clarified later in thet thread.
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Unread 03-20-2017, 07:31 PM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

We used 2 Denso window motors. They are mounted directly to a bar. As a low-budget team we'll use anything we can find that had been a Kop.

You can time how long it takes for us to climb. Team 3236
https://youtu.be/PUs_-JfkzKQ


First elim match with it
https://youtu.be/slbrmYpxQHg

as other people posted there are probably better Solutions but feel free to swing by and see ours. It works
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Unread 03-20-2017, 07:51 PM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodes View Post
We used 2 Denso window motors. They are mounted directly to a bar. As a low-budget team we'll use anything we can find that had been a Kop.

You can time how long it takes for us to climb. Team 3236
https://youtu.be/PUs_-JfkzKQ


First elim match with it
https://youtu.be/slbrmYpxQHg

as other people posted there are probably better Solutions but feel free to swing by and see ours. It works
Our design was a near copy of yours because you had it together long before we did. Unfortunately I think the weight and diameter of the roller is what threw it off. The keel roller is 12 inches wide by about 3 inches thick.

Thanks everyone for the help. 1153 has stepped up with a parts bin yet again. We'll probably be running a couple CIMs in low gearing.
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Unread 03-21-2017, 07:17 AM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC1AJT View Post
Hi Guys,
Rookie mentor and alum here. I am looking for the part number for some Bosch motors that came in the KOP several years ago. Sorry I don't know the year. They look like Denso window motors with black almost CIM-like motors on them and a shaft rather than a gear. We need to swap out our motors on our climber to get more torque. If you happen to find some spares in your shop, please let me know. I am more than willing to buy them off you and pay next-day shipping!
That doesn't sound familiar, do you have a picture?
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Unread 03-21-2017, 08:21 AM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC1AJT View Post
Thanks everyone for the help. 1153 has stepped up with a parts bin yet again. We'll probably be running a couple CIMs in low gearing.
It would really be worth your time to test some of your assumptions using the appropriate equations. Try putting your system parameters into the JVN calculator, and it should tell you if you will have enough power to climb in a reasonable amount of time. Use the "Linear Mechanism" tab. (Also be sure to check the Current Draw to make sure you are under the amperage dictated by your fuse).

Just for reference, using a single CIM geared 50:1 , your 3" drum, and assuming your robot is full weight, you should be able to climb in under 4 seconds.
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Unread 03-21-2017, 09:51 AM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monochron View Post
It would really be worth your time to test some of your assumptions using the appropriate equations. Try putting your system parameters into the JVN calculator, and it should tell you if you will have enough power to climb in a reasonable amount of time. Use the "Linear Mechanism" tab. (Also be sure to check the Current Draw to make sure you are under the amperage dictated by your fuse).

Just for reference, using a single CIM geared 50:1 , your 3" drum, and assuming your robot is full weight, you should be able to climb in under 4 seconds.
Thanks Brian. This is extremely helpful! I think we're looking at something like a 50:1 ratio with dual-CIMs. Using the calculator with a 32 inch travel distance, weight of 90 lbs, and 3 inch roller we'd hit the davit in about 2 seconds. This is very promising!
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Unread 03-21-2017, 10:30 AM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC1AJT View Post
Thanks Brian. This is extremely helpful! I think we're looking at something like a 50:1 ratio with dual-CIMs. Using the calculator with a 32 inch travel distance, weight of 90 lbs, and 3 inch roller we'd hit the davit in about 2 seconds. This is very promising!
Is there a reason you need a 3" roller? If you halve your roller size, you can halve your reduction, which decreases your weight and complexity. 50:1 is not an easy reduction to get with dual CIMs. You can use a toughbox variant to get 12.75:1, but then you either need a custom gearbox with very large gears, a 2-stage custom gearbox, or a chain reduction with large sprockets. If you change to a 1.5" roller, you will only need a 25:1 reduction, which is easier to get.

Also, are you sure about your robot weight being 90lbs? Remember that includes the weight of the robot + the weight of the bumpers + the weight of the battery (14lbs) + a decent margin of safety. I always add ~25lbs as a margin of safety and to account for dynamic loading.
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Unread 03-21-2017, 10:57 AM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari423 View Post
Is there a reason you need a 3" roller? If you halve your roller size, you can halve your reduction, which decreases your weight and complexity. 50:1 is not an easy reduction to get with dual CIMs. You can use a toughbox variant to get 12.75:1, but then you either need a custom gearbox with very large gears, a 2-stage custom gearbox, or a chain reduction with large sprockets. If you change to a 1.5" roller, you will only need a 25:1 reduction, which is easier to get.

Also, are you sure about your robot weight being 90lbs? Remember that includes the weight of the robot + the weight of the bumpers + the weight of the battery (14lbs) + a decent margin of safety. I always add ~25lbs as a margin of safety and to account for dynamic loading.
The gearbox was a pneumatic 2-stage off of a prior year's prototype that 1153 had on hand. They'll re-gear it and lock it into low. It will be fully custom.

As for the weight - yes I'm sure. With bumpers it's only 85 lbs. The robot is 100% aluminum.
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Unread 03-21-2017, 12:08 PM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

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Originally Posted by KC1AJT View Post
The gearbox was a pneumatic 2-stage off of a prior year's prototype that 1153 had on hand. They'll re-gear it and lock it into low. It will be fully custom.
Is it a fully custom gearbox? Or is it an unmodified COTS gearbox that you guys will put new gears into?
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Unread 03-21-2017, 12:24 PM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

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Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss View Post
Is it a fully custom gearbox? Or is it an unmodified COTS gearbox that you guys will put new gears into?
1153 is assisting on the details. If it's custom or COTS doesn't really matter as I think the cost analysis on the robot right now is under $500 haha
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Unread 03-21-2017, 01:15 PM
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Re: Bosch Window/Door Motors

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Originally Posted by KC1AJT View Post
1153 is assisting on the details. If it's custom or COTS doesn't really matter as I think the cost analysis on the robot right now is under $500 haha
It may not matter from a cost standpoint, but it does matter because you can't use custom parts manufactured before kickoff. If you made the gearbox plates before kickoff, you can't use them.
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