OCCRA
Go to Post Great. Just what we need. DHS showing up at all the regional competitions. . - dlavery [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-08-2018, 03:06 PM
s-neff's Avatar
s-neff s-neff is offline
Registered User
AKA: Sam
FRC #0841 (Biomechs)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: California
Posts: 254
s-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond reputes-neff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Innovation in Control award discussion

It's much more important for students to be able to articulate what they did and why than for the feature to be particularly nifty.

The Freezy Drive example above is an excellent example of student-driven and student-articulated design ownership & attention to detail in execution of both hardware and software design. In this case, in service to higher quality controls, so earning controls awards, and looking at design of pieces of the system most teams don't bother to analyze or change, so earning creativity awards. It's a beautiful system, and they deserve all the awards they got for it.

From a technical perspective, very little of it is groundbreaking (it's not PhD research), and the robot speeds involved (12fps, 15fps) are low to medium. That's not a bad thing. 1778 students totally owned the overall execution of an integrated controls system, brought attention to details often skipped in FRC, and likely drove circles around their competition in no small part due to all the attention they put into these upgrades to deliver the highest quality driver-machine controls connection that they could. Then explained all of it.

If your team's students own and articulate the design process and outcomes, the judges will find an award that fits.
__________________
Mentor - Team 841 (2015 - ? )
Mentor - Team 4 (2013 - 2014)
Student - Team 192 (2009 - 2010)
"Remember why you're doing this." -mrnoble

Last edited by s-neff : 06-08-2018 at 03:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-08-2018, 09:02 PM
billbo911's Avatar
billbo911 billbo911 is offline
I prefer you give a perfect effort.
AKA: That's "Mr. Bill"
FRC #2073 (EagleForce)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Elk Grove, Ca.
Posts: 2,673
billbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Innovation in Control award discussion

Innovation In Control can be many things. That said, there is another side to it that hasn't been mentioned yet. Not only should your control be innovative, be you need to be able to explain it to the Judges for that award. How can you win an award for something that no one knows about?

We have won the IIC award a number of times. Even though we know that there were more innovative controls in use at some of the same competitions, we were able to explain in detail how and why we choose to use our control approach.
__________________
CalGames 2009 Autonomous Champion Award
2012 Sacramento Semi-Finals, 2012 Sacramento Innovation in Control Award, 2012 SVR Judges Award.
2012 CalGames Autonomous Challenge Award winner ($$$).
2014 2X Rockwell Automation: Innovation in Control Award (CVR and SAC).
Curie Division Gracious Professionalism Award.
2014 Capital City Classic Winner AND Runner Up. Madtown Throwdown: Runner up.
2015 Innovation in Control Award, Sacramento.
2016 Chezy Champs Finalist, 2016 MTTD Finalist
2017 Utah Regional Winner!, Sacramento Finalist
Innovation in Control Newton/Carver Divisions , Newton #5 Captain
2018 WFFA Sacramento, Creativity Award Galileo-Robling Divisions
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-08-2018, 10:01 PM
deslusionary's Avatar
deslusionary deslusionary is offline
kult of the kotlin
AKA: Christopher Tinker
FRC #7093 (Veritas Valiants)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Rookie Year: 2018
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 137
deslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant futuredeslusionary has a brilliant future
Re: Innovation in Control award discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrv View Post
If only there were different types of software in FRC... Stuff like
  • Custom motion profiling implementation (more teams than you realize have done this)
  • Custom scouting systems (eg mobile phones -> database -> dataviz website) (see 1678)
  • Custom vision solutions
  • Anything that 900 does with ROS and whatnot (I can't even begin to summarize it)
  • 254's great idea to use vision processing on the scale to determine how high their elevator should go
  • Contributions to open-source work and/or strong software documentation provided for their robot code
  • Successful use of Agile/Scrum during the season and documentation on how/why it worked for the team
  • Robot simulation software
This variety in game-changing and innovative software is what makes me think there should be a specific award to reward these efforts. An earlier commenter argued that it's hard to separate between mechanical systems and the software component. I disagree, citing the above list as proof that software solutions can be rewarded independently from hardware solutions. Certainly, hardware enables the software, and motion profiling what be successful on a kitbot with the bolts falling off, but in the same sense software enables mechanical hardware to move in the first place.

I think the autonomous award is a good step in this direction, but if no new programming award is to be created, the scope of the innovation in control award should be refocused on the creative software-side solutions of many teams, whether that be on the robot or in the hands of scouters. That way we can reward the diversity of software the way we reward the diversity of mechanical design through the various awards for that. Just my two cents.

Also, thanks for your suggestions, especially on 'selling' your team to the judges and also having judge handouts. We will definitely be implementing these ideas.
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-09-2018, 09:17 PM
BJT's Avatar
BJT BJT is offline
uh, should that be smoking?
AKA: Ben Thorsgard
FRC #0876 (Thunder Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Northwood ND
Posts: 270
BJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond reputeBJT has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Innovation in Control award discussion

In 2011 we won the innovation in control award with a robot that had 2 limit switches on the arm and no other sensors. Super simple programming. What impressed the judges I think was that the whole machine was really smooth. The drivetrain and arm were just really easy for the drivers to operate well.
__________________


Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-09-2018, 09:41 PM
brennonbrimhall brennonbrimhall is offline
Lead Mentor
AKA: Brennon Brimhall
FRC #6844 (Provotypes)
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Provo, UT
Posts: 399
brennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond reputebrennonbrimhall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Innovation in Control award discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrv View Post
If only there were different types of software in FRC... Stuff like
  • Custom motion profiling implementation (more teams than you realize have done this)
  • Custom scouting systems (eg mobile phones -> database -> dataviz website) (see 1678)
  • Custom vision solutions
  • Anything that 900 does with ROS and whatnot (I can't even begin to summarize it)
  • 254's great idea to use vision processing on the scale to determine how high their elevator should go
  • Contributions to open-source work and/or strong software documentation provided for their robot code
  • Successful use of Agile/Scrum during the season and documentation on how/why it worked for the team
  • Robot simulation software
Can we put test-driven development on the list? Not only is that good industry practice, but to mock WPILib for unit testing is very nontrivial.
__________________
Code and FRC, my personal blog.

Team 20, 2012-2014: 4 blue banners, 5 medals, and 9 team awards.
Missionary, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 2014-2016: Colorado Denver South Mission.
Brigham Young University, 2016-present: Computer Science.
Team 6844, 2018-present: 2018 Utah RAS, 2018 Newton/Carver RHS.
Reply With Quote
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-11-2018, 12:24 PM
Jaci's Avatar
Jaci Jaci is offline
http://imjac.in/ta/name
AKA: Jaci R Brunning
FRC #5333 (Can't C#) #5663 (Ground Control) | (OpenRIO, FRC West Aus)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Rookie Year: 2015
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 633
Jaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond reputeJaci has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Innovation in Control award discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by brennonbrimhall View Post
Can we put test-driven development on the list? Not only is that good industry practice, but to mock WPILib for unit testing is very nontrivial.
We're working on this right now! In 2019 we're enabling unit testing right in WPILib so you can test your code using provided structures with JUnit5 (Java) and GoogleTest (C++):

Code:
public class TalonTest {
  @Test
  public void TestTalonSet() {
    try (Talon talon = new Talon(3)) {
      PWMSim talonSim = new PWMSim(3);
      talon.set(0.5);
      assertEquals(0.5, talonSim.getSpeed(), 0.001);
      talon.set(-0.5);
      assertEquals(-0.5, talonSim.getSpeed(), 0.001);
    }
  }
}
Code:
TEST(TalonTests, TestTalonSet) {
  frc::Talon talon{3};
  frc::sim::PWMSim talonSim{3};
  talon.Set(0.5);
  ASSERT_DOUBLE_EQ(0.5, talonSim.GetSpeed());
  talon.Set(-0.5);
  ASSERT_DOUBLE_EQ(-0.5, talonSim.GetSpeed());
}
We're still ironing it out, but at the moment we've got it functional on a preview build of WPILib for 2019, and it all justworks^TM
__________________

Curtin FRC (5333+5663) : Head Mentor
WPILib : Developer

Website | Github
jaci.brunning@gmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-11-2018, 10:36 PM
philso philso is offline
Mentor
FRC #3103 (Iron Plaid)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 1,731
philso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond reputephilso has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Innovation in Control award discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerthworm View Post
I'm solidly in this camp. I'm even not super into associating "autonomous award" with the programming team. As some of our favorite Poofy mentors have said recently, the best way to do auto is to design a robot which makes auto easy. It's not just programming's job to make the auto routine work. It's the whole team's.

On the topic of controls systems:

Embedded software is almost never an end unto itself. It's merely the description of how you want a complex system to function. The lines of code written are just a particular means to a desired outcome. (see servo/toilet examples above)

I can tell you from (non-1736) experience - a poorly functioning drivetrain cannot be fixed by nifty software, no matter how wizard you think your programming team is .

I don't believe it would be possible to have a "software award" for a controls system, auto routine, or really anything related to robot motion... Yes, software is a part of that. But the mechanical and electrical components are also a huge part.

It is a fallacy to think that the software in a robot can be evaluated separately from the hardware. In my 35+ years doing electrical and electronic design at many different companies, I have had many conversations with the firmware guy to work out how his firmware and my hardware are to work together. We have even had discussions about whether particular functions should be implemented in my hardware or in firmware.
Reply With Quote
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-14-2018, 12:19 AM
BigBen's Avatar
BigBen BigBen is offline
Registered User
FRC #3494 (The Quadrangles)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 57
BigBen will become famous soon enough
Re: Innovation in Control award discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbo911 View Post
Innovation In Control can be many things. That said, there is another side to it that hasn't been mentioned yet. Not only should your control be innovative, be you need to be able to explain it to the Judges for that award. How can you win an award for something that no one knows about?

We have won the IIC award a number of times. Even though we know that there were more innovative controls in use at some of the same competitions, we were able to explain in detail how and why we choose to use our control approach.
THIS!!!! So much depends on this.

Having judged in the Indiana District and at the World Championships over the last few years I cannot stress enough that if the judges are not informed by the students during the interviews, you will not win an award no matter how innovative and creative your robot/programming/controls may be. The judges are seeing a lot of teams in a relatively short period of time. A well explained, well thought out simple mechanism/sensor/programming that works every time can easily beat out a super whamo-dyne awesome ridiculous design/sensor that only works half the time (or really just the not working when the judges are watching unfortunately).

Simple effective solutions that work can be surprisingly innovative sometimes. Those are often the solutions you see many teams copying in the following weeks of competition, with the "why didn't we think of that" reaction.
Reply With Quote
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-14-2018, 02:44 AM
MeGuttieri's Avatar
MeGuttieri MeGuttieri is offline
Registered User
AKA: Megan Guttieri
FRC #0971 (Spartan Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Berkeley
Posts: 63
MeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond reputeMeGuttieri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Innovation in Control award discussion

[quote=s-neff;1772121]It's much more important for students to be able to articulate what they did and why than for the feature to be particularly nifty.
QUOTE]

I don't know how many times this can be re-iterated, so I'll echo Sam's sentiments. Awards are a bit of a lottery, especially in a place like California with so many teams per events and only 18 awards per event.

I recommend practicing. What is it that you would like the judges to know about your "controls"? What makes it "innovative"? Think about the rubric for the award and how your robot best fits into it.

While Innovation in Control is typically the "software" award, it's not called the "best code award". Teams with awesome wiring, and inventive mechanisms have been known to also receive it.

Earning awards is not a perfect science, and neither is building a robot. I applaud your ambition, but if you really want it I definitely would start with the awards rubrics online.
__________________
Spartan Robotics 971 Mentor 2017-Present
Friarbots 3309 2014-2016

Last edited by MeGuttieri : 06-14-2018 at 02:45 AM. Reason: Can't really figure out what's wrong with the quoting thing on chief.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:08 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi