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 Chief Delphi 12 awg vs 10awg
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#1
05-13-2018, 10:01 AM
 ns3517 Registered User FRC #0316 (Lunatecs) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Jul 2015 Rookie Year: 2008 Location: south jersey Posts: 165
12 awg vs 10awg

Has anyone done testing to see the voltage drop per foot of 12awg vs 10awg wire? We used 10awg this year on all motors but wasn't sure if someone has data that shows how much drop there is per foot. What about 14awg vs 10awg?

Last edited by ns3517 : 05-13-2018 at 10:28 AM.
#2
05-13-2018, 10:30 AM
 phargo#1018 Registered User AKA: Peter Argo FRC #1018 (RoboDevils) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Dec 2013 Rookie Year: 2009 Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA Posts: 88
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

You might take a look at this simulation:

https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...d.php?t=160902
(sorry, I don't know how to link to the previous post)

Using this tool, you can examine the impacts of changing from 12 to 10 AWG or from 12 to 14 AWG. You can also look at impacts of changing from 6 to 4 to 2 AWG, as well.

Hope that this helps!
#3
05-13-2018, 11:31 PM
 GeeTwo Somebody Else AKA: Gus Michel II no team Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Jan 2014 Rookie Year: 2013 Location: Slidell, LA Posts: 5,971
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Already had this tab in my browser from some shunt calculations this afternoon.

Each 3 AWG increase in wire diameter [decrease in AWG number] doubles the cross section, and cuts the resistance and voltage drop for a given current in half. Each 2AWG step up increases cross section by ~59%, and decreases resistance and voltage drop by ~37%.
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#4
05-17-2018, 07:55 PM
 Al Skierkiewicz Chief Robot Inspector AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005 FRC #0111 (WildStang) Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Jun 2001 Rookie Year: 1996 Location: Wheeling, IL Posts: 11,116
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Please search for my other entries over the years. However, a simple rule of thumb is a wire foot, WF. Simply stated, a wire foot is a one foot piece of #10 wire. When passing 100 amps, it will drop 0.1 volt.

#6 wire is 0.5 WF/ft.
#10 is 1 WF/ft.
#12 is ~ 2WF/ft.
The battery has 11 WF of internal resistance.
The main breaker when new is about 0.1 WF and each crimped terminal is 0.1 WF worse case.
The PDP varies for each terminal. The amount of copper loos increases as you move across the PDP from the battery terminals.
Speed controllers also have some loss due to internal resistance. Check the spec sheet for the device you are analyzing.

One simply needs to add up the WF to determine the loss. Remember both the red and black wire. Please remember that the battery can produce up to 600 amps when fully charged but the terminal voltage will be reduced by the voltage drop across the internal resistance.
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________________________
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#5
05-18-2018, 07:53 AM
 GeeTwo Somebody Else AKA: Gus Michel II no team Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Jan 2014 Rookie Year: 2013 Location: Slidell, LA Posts: 5,971
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Al's WF is essentially one mΩ. Converting some of the even entries in the table I linked and rounding to two significant figures:
• #0 is 0.10 WF/ft
• #2 is 0.16 WF/ft
• #4 is 0.25 WF/ft
• #6 is 0.40 WF/ft
• #8 is 0.63 WF/ft
• #10 is 1.00 WF/ft
• #12 is 1.6 WF/ft
• #14 is 2.5 WF/ft
• #16 is 4.0 WF/ft
• #18 is 6.4 WF/ft
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Robots are great, but inspiration is the reason we're here.
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[Quoting brennonbrimhall]: We design a new robot every year, but we can't forget that we also design a new team every year as folks come and go.
#6
05-18-2018, 12:18 PM
 Richard Wallace I live for the details. FRC #3620 (Average Joes) Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Jan 2003 Rookie Year: 1996 Location: Southwestern Michigan Posts: 4,471
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Quote:
 Originally Posted by GeeTwo Al's WF is essentially one mΩ.
Admiral Hopper had a famous demonstration in which she held up a foot of wire and called it a "nanosecond".

So, Big Al's wire-foot (aka milliOhm) is in excellent company.
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#7
05-18-2018, 12:40 PM
 ns3517 Registered User FRC #0316 (Lunatecs) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Jul 2015 Rookie Year: 2008 Location: south jersey Posts: 165
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

When you guys say #10 or #12 wire you mean 10AWG and 12AWG?
#8
05-18-2018, 12:47 PM
 ns3517 Registered User FRC #0316 (Lunatecs) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Jul 2015 Rookie Year: 2008 Location: south jersey Posts: 165
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz Please search for my other entries over the years. However, a simple rule of thumb is a wire foot, WF. Simply stated, a wire foot is a one foot piece of #10 wire. When passing 100 amps, it will drop 0.1 volt. #6 wire is 0.5 WF/ft. #10 is 1 WF/ft. #12 is ~ 2WF/ft. The battery has 11 WF of internal resistance. The main breaker when new is about 0.1 WF and each crimped terminal is 0.1 WF worse case. The PDP varies for each terminal. The amount of copper loos increases as you move across the PDP from the battery terminals. Speed controllers also have some loss due to internal resistance. Check the spec sheet for the device you are analyzing. One simply needs to add up the WF to determine the loss. Remember both the red and black wire. Please remember that the battery can produce up to 600 amps when fully charged but the terminal voltage will be reduced by the voltage drop across the internal resistance.
I'm a bit confused by this. Mainly the wire foot and this part
#6 wire is 0.5 WF/ft.
#10 is 1 WF/ft.
#12 is ~ 2WF/ft.

You mean AWG of wire when you say number right? and when you say #10 is 1WF/ft I'm not following to much.
#9
05-18-2018, 01:24 PM
 JamesCH95 Hardcore Dork AKA: JCH FRC #0095 (The Grasshoppers) Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Dec 2004 Rookie Year: 2001 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 2,596
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ns3517 I'm a bit confused by this. Mainly the wire foot and this part #6 wire is 0.5 WF/ft. #10 is 1 WF/ft. #12 is ~ 2WF/ft. You mean AWG of wire when you say number right? and when you say #10 is 1WF/ft I'm not following to much.
1WF = 1mΩ

Thus:

#6 = 0.5mΩ/ft
#10 = 1mΩ/ft
etc

That is to say: ten gauge wire adds one miliohm of resistance for every foot of length that a current must pass through.
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#10
05-18-2018, 02:05 PM
 seg9585 Registered User AKA: Eric FRC #0612 (Chantilly Robotics) Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Feb 2006 Rookie Year: 2001 Location: Chantilly, VA (Harris Corp) Posts: 636
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Richard Wallace Admiral Hopper had a famous demonstration in which she held up a foot of wire and called it a "nanosecond". So, Big Al's wire-foot (aka milliOhm) is in excellent company.
People (including customers) have asked me why the latency to command receipt and verification to our GEO spacecraft can take so long (specifically around 250 ms). "Can't you push this up to 5Hz??" "Not unless you can change the speed of light..."
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#11
05-25-2018, 08:26 AM
 Al Skierkiewicz Chief Robot Inspector AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005 FRC #0111 (WildStang) Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Jun 2001 Rookie Year: 1996 Location: Wheeling, IL Posts: 11,116
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

ns,
I started using this analogy many years ago in an attempt to get entry level electrical students to understand the loss in wire is a function of the wire size and it is real loss. One foot of #10AWG has a series resistance of around 0.001 ohm or 1 mohm. When passing 100 amps through that wire, it will drop 0.1 volts for every foot of wire, black and red. Ohm's Law is V=I*R. So when looking at robots that are browning out is essential to examine the losses in the system. The WireFoot is a simple way to do this. The battery has 11WF internal so at 100 amps, it will lower the terminal voltage by 1.1 volts. Yes that means that at full charge the battery will read 10.9 volts when delivering 100 amps. So as you start adding up the losses, it is easy to see why some robots are prone to brownouts. Some typical items that catch teams are losses in the range of 200-500 WF in things like loose connections on the battery, poor crimps on #6 wire, loose terminals on the main breaker or the PDP. Even if all of these connections are great, high current can also lower the available voltage. 500 amps across the internal resistance of the battery can drop the terminal voltage by 500 * 0.011 ohms = 5.5 volts. The fully charged battery under this condition will be 12-5.5=6.5 volts.

Now you have heard of fires and smoke on FRC robots right? Well another version of Ohm's Law relates to power. P=V*I. So for the 500 amp example above, the 5.5 volts dropped internal to the battery results in 2750 watts. Yes that is the equivalent to 27 100 watt light bulbs giving off the same heat inside the battery. Or 500 amps at a loose battery connector could develop a similar power which would result in some really high temperature at the connection. That temperature would be high enough to set flammable materials on fire. That is why teams should never use paper based tape to insulate high current connections like the battery terminals.

Now in real world FRC robots, it is rare to develop that kind of power, but even 100 amps can raise temperature to excessive levels, resulting in smoke or flame. I have seen SB50 connectors melt under conditions where the terminals were not properly crimped or the connector not fully mated.
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Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
________________________
Knowledge is power. Power UP!

Last edited by Al Skierkiewicz : 05-25-2018 at 08:29 AM.
#12
05-25-2018, 11:14 AM
 cbale2000 Registered User AKA: Chris Bale FRC #5712 (Gray Matter) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Apr 2006 Rookie Year: 2004 Location: Saginaw, MI Posts: 1,651
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Quote:
 Originally Posted by phargo#1018 You might take a look at this simulation: https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...d.php?t=160902 (sorry, I don't know how to link to the previous post) Using this tool, you can examine the impacts of changing from 12 to 10 AWG or from 12 to 14 AWG. You can also look at impacts of changing from 6 to 4 to 2 AWG, as well. Hope that this helps!
I think the most telling thing about this simulation isn't the difference between 12awg and 10awg wire (which is relatively minor), but the difference between an internal battery resistance of 0.015 Ohms, and 0.025 Ohms. If ever you needed evidence that the quality of your batteries matter, here it is.
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#13
05-25-2018, 01:34 PM
 JamesCH95 Hardcore Dork AKA: JCH FRC #0095 (The Grasshoppers) Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Dec 2004 Rookie Year: 2001 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 2,596
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Quote:
 Originally Posted by cbale2000 I think the most telling thing about this simulation isn't the difference between 12awg and 10awg wire (which is relatively minor), but the difference between an internal battery resistance of 0.015 Ohms, and 0.025 Ohms. If ever you needed evidence that the quality of your batteries matter, here it is.
Bingo. We retire anything that tests over .021 or so.
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Theory is a nice place, I'd like to go there one day, I hear everything works there.

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#14
05-25-2018, 02:11 PM
 cbale2000 Registered User AKA: Chris Bale FRC #5712 (Gray Matter) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Apr 2006 Rookie Year: 2004 Location: Saginaw, MI Posts: 1,651
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JamesCH95 Bingo. We retire anything that tests over .021 or so.
Yeah, we made the mistake of ordering some "cheap" batteries from Amazon this year that all shipped with an internal resistance between 0.021 and 0.027. Needless to say we did not use them on our competition bot. We later ordered some from AndyMark that were much better (0.015).
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#15
05-26-2018, 07:40 PM
 Al Skierkiewicz Chief Robot Inspector AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005 FRC #0111 (WildStang) Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Jun 2001 Rookie Year: 1996 Location: Wheeling, IL Posts: 11,116
Re: 12 awg vs 10awg

Chris,
What device are you using to measure internal resistance?
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Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
________________________
Knowledge is power. Power UP!

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