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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:34 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

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Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi View Post
Rawrr, talk about designer's remorse. >.<

We were so unsure of ourselves this year about our design selection (at least I was) and now that uncertainty is finally confirmed by 148, 254, 968, and 100. $@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#. Hate that almost every year the design that our team rejects is proven to be the better bot and we always get beaten by that design. Ahh, oh well I guess.

Nonetheless, awesome machine as usual and I hope your drivers had a fun time practicing. Hopefully see you in Atlanta on Newton again. (06 repeat?) We still have that Programming Prowess award you guys gave us on Newton that year. ^_^
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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:36 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

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Originally Posted by JVN View Post
1. Nobody has beaten anybody yet, don't give up on your robot.
2. If you decide you're not good enough, you still have 40 lbs of witholding allowance to make changes to your robot. Remember, "done" is a 4-letter word. Think continuous improvement and try to make changes which will have big impacts on overall performance.

Don't stop now!

The thing about working hard, is you can always work harder. The thing about being great is you can always be greater.

-John
I actually really needed to hear that from someone, thank you.
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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:39 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

Robots like this are why 2v3 matches will be undesirable this year.
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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:41 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

I agree with JVN. 254, 968, 148, and 100 have made killer renditions of the power dumper model of robot. I also believe that they could have made killer renditions of a shooter robot as well that would have everyone's jaws on the floor. These are without a doubt some of if not the best teams in FIRST year in and year out and basically any design they come up with will probably be a somewhat jaw-dropping experience. I wouldn't give up on your idea though Akash. Maybe look into a way to increase the rate that you can dump balls. Add a power roller if you dont have one or add more power to it if you do have one. That should be an easy upgrade. All of these killer bots we have seen have relatively simple designs and a ton of power to push massive amounts of balls through the system. You should be able to add some more power and have a more effective scoring device.

Also remember just being able to score a lot of balls at once doesn't guarantee winning. You also must be able to drive well and smartly to avoid being scored on and getting in bad situations.
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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:41 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

While I am still not convinced the "power dump" is the best strategy, this robot may very well make me eat my words. Remarkable.
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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:45 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

I told you everyone would be very very afraid.
If they ever teamed up with 148 at CMP, they may be extremely disappointed that there would only be 3 trailers to fill in 2 minutes. What are they gonna do with all that extra time?
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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:46 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri View Post
While I am still not convinced the "power dump" is the best strategy, this robot may very well make me eat my words. Remarkable.
I too don't necessarily think a power dumper is the best strategy. I am leaning toward both power dumpers and shooters being equal so long as both are built to emphasize there particular strengths. I do believe that any shooter designed for long distances is not going to be particularly effective. I see a rapid fire short range turreted shooter as being on par if not better than power dumpers in many cases. I also think that 254's bot is truly scary as a dumper. Luckily I don't think many dumper designs will be capable of such absurd firepower. As soon as a team makes one wrong move driving which will happen, 254 will be able to offload at least 15+ balls.
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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:55 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

The only problem with this bot is that if it misses, there are 40 balls on the floor.

(though the chance of all 40 balls missing on even a moving target is quite low)

nice job poofs, coupled with a pinning robot there is no way you guys could lose.
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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:57 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

Classic 254...good job guys.
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Unread 02-17-2009, 02:58 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

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Originally Posted by sdcantrell56 View Post
I too don't necessarily think a power dumper is the best strategy. I am leaning toward both power dumpers and shooters being equal so long as both are built to emphasize there particular strengths. I do believe that any shooter designed for long distances is not going to be particularly effective. I see a rapid fire short range turreted shooter as being on par if not better than power dumpers in many cases. I also think that 254's bot is truly scary as a dumper. Luckily I don't think many dumper designs will be capable of such absurd firepower. As soon as a team makes one wrong move driving which will happen, 254 will be able to offload at least 15+ balls.
IMHO...
The question is not about short range or long range, not about turreted or stationary. The question is about throughput. If you can spit those balls out fast enough you are by definition a "dumper".

Once you take throughput out of the equation it is about accuracy. There are an infinite number of factors any number of which can be BLENDED into a design. To label a robot as a "shooter" or a "dumper" is strange to me.

There is a spectrum.
On one side we have a robot that can fire off 45 shots from 50 feet away using their super magic camera code in under 5 seconds and score 100% in 2 goals at once.
On the other side we have a robot that fires 1 ball every 10 seconds and can only score in a goal that is touching their robot and misses 50% of the time.

We all obviously want the first example, but we make tradeoffs based on our team's individual limitations. 148 found a balance of range-accuracy-speed-volume that made us very happy. Every other team found their own balance. Some teams don't need to find a balance because they are awesome enough to do EVERYTHING. Most teams cannot do this (or were too chicken to try... us included.)

I'm expecting 71 to unveil their Orbit Ball Howlitzer any day now that makes our robot look like a children's toy.

Honestly... the only stat which matters is the number in your "W" column. I guess we'll wait and see. I'm willing to bet that even if you gave 254 an inferior robot they'd have a whole pile of W's, and NOTHING about this robot is "inferior".

-John
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Unread 02-17-2009, 03:11 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN View Post
IMHO...
The question is not about short range or long range, not about turreted or stationary. The question is about throughput. If you can spit those balls out fast enough you are by definition a "dumper".

Once you take throughput out of the equation it is about accuracy. There are an infinite number of factors any number of which can be BLENDED into a design. To label a robot as a "shooter" or a "dumper" is strange to me.

There is a spectrum.
On one side we have a robot that can fire off 45 shots from 50 feet away using their super magic camera code in under 5 seconds and score 100% in 2 goals at once.
On the other side we have a robot that fires 1 ball every 10 seconds and can only score in a goal that is touching their robot and misses 50% of the time.

We all obviously want the first example, but we make tradeoffs based on our team's individual limitations. 148 found a balance of range-accuracy-speed-volume that made us very happy. Every other team found their own balance. Some teams don't need to find a balance because they are awesome enough to do EVERYTHING. Most teams cannot do this (or were too chicken to try... us included.)

I'm expecting 71 to unveil their Orbit Ball Howlitzer any day now that makes our robot look like a children's toy.

Honestly... the only stat which matters is the number in your "W" column. I guess we'll wait and see. I'm willing to bet that even if you gave 254 an inferior robot they'd have a whole pile of W's, and NOTHING about this robot is "inferior".

-John

I completely agree. We have become so caught up in the semantics of these designs. There will be many different designs that will win regionals. Right now it is definitely too early to predict what will be the "be all end all design" (not that there ever will be). We have somewhat been debating shooter versus dumper and yet the ultimate will probably be a blend of the 2. 254, 148, 968, and 100 have built robots that lean more towards a "dumper" design but they are still shooting balls some distance. We (1771) lean more towards the "shooter" side of things with being able to aim more precisely, but at the same time we can still empty an entire hopper in under 3 seconds. Both designs have positives and negatives, but as long as each team takes the time to think of these and develop a strategy to take advantage of their strengths, they will have a winning design.
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Unread 02-17-2009, 03:16 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

....and all of the robots can each only start with seven balls, so loading and harvesting, which depend on payload specialist skill and driver skill, will still play a very large role.

Robots like 254s and 148s will make the game more exciting, and it'll be a pleasure to watch them in action!
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Unread 02-17-2009, 03:18 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

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Originally Posted by JVN View Post
Honestly... the only stat which matters is the number in your "W" column. I guess we'll wait and see. I'm willing to bet that even if you gave 254 an inferior robot they'd have a whole pile of W's, and NOTHING about this robot is "inferior".
I'm inclined to agree with this statement.

As for "shooters" vs. "dumpers," it's all a matter of execution, strategy, and operation. There will be succesful teams with both designs.
Now, I don't think most "shooters" will function in the way that a majority of the community originally seemed to think they would. I don't think that is a viable strategy, or would even be a highly succesful one if it was.
Granted, there will be some teams who may capably pull it off, but they are the same type of teams that could win a championship building a tiny nine-sided robot with no manipulator.

Without tipping my hand too much, there will be a role, and an important role, for shooter teams with the right design. In fact, there are various different incarnations this role can manifest in, but with similar features.
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Unread 02-17-2009, 03:24 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

Of course, we are all saying this without having seen 71's robot yet. I am preparing to be blown away.




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Unread 02-17-2009, 03:26 PM
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Re: Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

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Originally Posted by dlavery View Post
Of course, we are all saying this without having seen 71's robot yet. I am preparing to be blown away.




.
Particularly since they apparently had enough time to make a border-line, full feature length film during the build season. I am possibly more scared than I am from seeing these past few uber-dumper-shooter monsters
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