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Unread 04-30-2018, 06:46 AM
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2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

What could FIRST stand to improve on?
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Unread 04-30-2018, 07:49 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

TOO LONG OF WAITS FOR EINSTEIN FINALS MATCHES.

Terrible Camera Angles at Houston
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Unread 04-30-2018, 07:49 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

I personally was not a fan of time based scoring. While it created some interesting things strategically, matches were usually decided long before the end. Close matches often looked like an absolute blow out on the scoreboard and it got rid of most of the end game drama.
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Unread 04-30-2018, 08:04 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

My initial read of the rules, which I was quickly disabused of, was that all three of the force and boost power ups could be played throughout the match, presumably in order from 1 to 3, rather than just one of each. That would have made them much more useful and changed the potential for comebacks.
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Unread 04-30-2018, 08:05 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

Just focusing on the game, I think it was a good first try at time-based scoring. However, I think it snowballed too hard at higher levels of play.

Once you lost control of the Scale, it was harder for you to score cubes on it. So not only are you taking longer to score, but you're losing points as this is going on.

As you're trying to reclaim the Scale, your opponents can then go for your Switch and/or Power Ups. You now have to either continue going for the Scale (still harder for you than your opponents), or try to reclaim your Switch.

For higher levels of play, once you lost control of the Scale you lost. There are a few exemptions, but if you look at all of the Einstein matches this is the case.

Another issue is that there are no last-second scores for the win. If you claim the Scale in the last 10 seconds (when you were down all match), it doesn't really matter. Even if you get 3 climbs and your opponents get 0, if they had the Scale the whole match you still lost.

Even with those negatives I think Power Up! was still a better game than Steamworks. I think time-based scoring can be great in the future, as long as there's another equal or higher scoring option.
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Unread 04-30-2018, 08:15 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

FIRST pretended that everyone at Detroit didn't see Houston's announcement and literally just replayed it at Detroit.
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Unread 04-30-2018, 10:34 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

The round robin before Einstein is still dumb. (Should be 2 pools of 3 for qts, then semi finals and finals)

Minute Maid is still awful.

The repeated stuff during Detroit Einstein.
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Unread 04-30-2018, 11:30 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

While I really enjoyed this game, I was let down by the competitiveness of the Einstein in general. I had been telling myself all season "just wait for Einstein, the matches will be back and forth and exciting." It seemed the inherent snowball effect of the game did not go away at the highest levels of play which was a bit disappointing. Looking forward to Chezy Champs and IRI to see if competitiveness increases to what I envisioned...
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Unread 04-30-2018, 11:45 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

The extra RPs were too partner dependent. In the past you've been able to get 1 extra RP by yourself and 1 with your alliance. Being reliant for both this year caused tons of unneeded stress. Its unhealthy to feel like you've lost a match because you only got 3 ranking points.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 02:08 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

Launching rules.

Please FIRST, just make scoring of more dangerous objects based on floor markings, and consistently measured in all areas. Having some areas be contact while others are bumper based and others still are any part of the robot leads to confusion for both drivers and refs. Putting tape around the switches and changing the launching rule to "Power Cubes must break the plane of the switch/scale/exchange zone prior to launching" would have eliminated almost all the confusion and large penalty assessments for launching.

Otherwise this game is pretty darn good.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 02:28 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by Donut View Post
Launching rules.

Please FIRST, just make scoring of more dangerous objects based on floor markings, and consistently measured in all areas. Having some areas be contact while others are bumper based and others still are any part of the robot leads to confusion for both drivers and refs. Putting tape around the switches and changing the launching rule to "Power Cubes must break the plane of the switch/scale/exchange zone prior to launching" would have eliminated almost all the confusion and large penalty assessments for launching.

Otherwise this game is pretty darn good.
Also: Clarify what a "Launch" is. In plain English. Or, if you must, use scientific language like "non-gravitational acceleration relative to the robot". Hey, that actually covers all the stuff in the Manual...




My biggest comment could take many forms, and isn't aimed at all at FIRST (except as a sideline). Earlier versions of this comment took the form of a rant.

This is the first time that I can remember that FIRST changed not one, but two rules/procedures in response to community whining. (And there are other cases out there where there's community whining but nothing is changing at this time.) If I can use the term, there's an awful lot of people out there that seem to be coming across like spoiled children. Incidentally, that doesn't often work in the real world, folks, trust me on this! While I do think that the changes may have needed to have been made, I also think that if people had just knuckled down and dealt with it (lived with it), they would have been better people. And, if they were REALLY smart and documented the pain and suffering, and sent that to FIRST, FIRST would have known in excruciating detail not to make that mistake again. Well, in some cases at least.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 06:53 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by leafy1072 View Post
While I really enjoyed this game, I was let down by the competitiveness of the Einstein in general. I had been telling myself all season "just wait for Einstein, the matches will be back and forth and exciting." It seemed the inherent snowball effect of the game did not go away at the highest levels of play which was a bit disappointing. Looking forward to Chezy Champs and IRI to see if competitiveness increases to what I envisioned...

Go watch the MSC final round (MInstein). All nine matches were great.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 07:52 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
My biggest comment could take many forms, and isn't aimed at all at FIRST (except as a sideline). Earlier versions of this comment took the form of a rant.

This is the first time that I can remember that FIRST changed not one, but two rules/procedures in response to community whining. (And there are other cases out there where there's community whining but nothing is changing at this time.) If I can use the term, there's an awful lot of people out there that seem to be coming across like spoiled children. Incidentally, that doesn't often work in the real world, folks, trust me on this! While I do think that the changes may have needed to have been made, I also think that if people had just knuckled down and dealt with it (lived with it), they would have been better people. And, if they were REALLY smart and documented the pain and suffering, and sent that to FIRST, FIRST would have known in excruciating detail not to make that mistake again. Well, in some cases at least.
Ah yes, the classic "I don't like the way you made your point so I'll call it "whining", and then proceed to whine about it"

Solid.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 08:07 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

Not showing the game animation before the final Einstein. Forcing FTC to watch FRC and vice versa is fine, but show the game animation. One of our mentors watched the FTC and said "Wow there was a lot going on, it looked pretty cool but I have no clue what was going on." Not like they didn't have time.

Also, I'd prefer they rearrange Cobo to be like St Louis was laid out and just had Einstein there. They could give us the same layout and it would have been amazing. Instead they turned Cobo into a super regional.

As far as the game goes, I liked it well enough. Fouls seemed way to easy to get this year and sometimes almost unavoidable. Because they were so heavy I know our team in Carson had like 3 or 4 NOT called. We were playing defense and had at least 3 cubes launched into our robot as they tried to score with us in the way. These weren't called. (wouldn't have changed the outcome of the match, these are just an example).

I also did not like that RP was something that required all 3 robots to be present. So if a robot doesn't show up there goes your rank. Just didn't feel fair that RP was based so heavily on something completely uncontrollable. Maybe have a rule that cross RP means that all robots that show up have to cross? Not sure.
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Unread 05-01-2018, 08:12 AM
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Re: 2018 Lessons Learned - The Negative

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Originally Posted by KelleyCook View Post
Go watch the MSC final round (MInstein). All nine matches were great.
This is a recurring theme with a lot of modern games in the Two Champs era. Several District Championships in established Districts (Indiana, MAR, NE, Michigan to name a few) are just more competitive than the Championships at all levels of play.

Let that sink in for a moment. For some teams, the "highest level of play" that we all pay $5,000 for and take numerous days off from work and school to attend, is actually presenting a degradation in team competitiveness, and on top of that, a degradation in event production quality! So, for those teams, why would they want to attend the Championship at all? Why not use that money and time on IRI, or Chezy Champs?

This topic might merit a separate thread. But every year it seems like Champs is a harder sell.

For disclosure, 1058 did not attend champs this year, but not because of these reasons.
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