OCCRA
Go to Post FIRST is not about lowering the bar to those with the smallest expectations, but helping helping all teams exceed the standards set by the best. - Allison K [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:01 AM
FredK FredK is offline
Registered User
FRC #3676
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Texas
Posts: 23
FredK is an unknown quantity at this point
Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

We are considering opting out of the KOP chassis and building our own WCD. We are aware of the potential advantages of both but are wanting advice on the financial disadvantages. Specifically, will we be able to get our money's worth with the voucher? If we are buying stuff from WCP and VEX for the chassis, will we be essentially forfeiting the voucher? What do other low resource teams buy with the voucher when they opt out?
For reference, we spend less than $500 (often way less) to build the robot typically.
Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:06 AM
marshall's Avatar
marshall marshall is offline
Online Stripe & Drape Sales
FRC #0900 (The Zebracorns)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,892
marshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredK View Post
For reference, we spend less than $500 (often way less) to build the robot typically.
Keep the KOP chassis.
__________________
"La mejor salsa del mundo es la hambre" - Miguel de Cervantes
"The future is unwritten" - Joe Strummer
"Simplify, then add lightness" - Colin Chapman
Clarke's Laws
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:11 AM
bigbeezy's Avatar
bigbeezy bigbeezy is offline
Registered User
AKA: Bryan Rickards
no team (1592 Bionic Tigers / 2338 Gear it Forward)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 380
bigbeezy has much to be proud ofbigbeezy has much to be proud ofbigbeezy has much to be proud ofbigbeezy has much to be proud ofbigbeezy has much to be proud ofbigbeezy has much to be proud ofbigbeezy has much to be proud ofbigbeezy has much to be proud of
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

You could easily put the voucher to good use by getting plenty of compliant wheels, bearings, chain, pneumatics, electrical components, motors, etc. When I was with the team, we weren't low resource but used the voucher for those items since we built a WCD frame.

If you haven't already considered it, the kit frame can be useful as a test bed. Quickly get it running and use for prototyping. Also, having the same frame year-to-year can make things like building a practice bot more feasible.
__________________
Team 1592 Bionic Tigers -- Driver 2005-2008
Winner - Florida Regional 2005
Finalist - Newton Division 2007
Winner - Colorado Regional 2008
Florida State University - BS Mechanical Engineering
Team 2338 Gear it Forward -- Mentor/Drive Coach 2013-2017
Winner - Wisconsin Regional 2013
Finalist - Midwest Regional 2014, 2015, 2016
Winner - Archimedes Sub-Division 2015
Chairman's Award - Midwest Regional 2015, 2016, 2017
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:13 AM
Jon Stratis's Avatar
Jon Stratis Jon Stratis is offline
Mentor, LRI, MN RPC
FRC #2177 (The Robettes)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,009
Jon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

If you're going to opt out, I suggest having a good idea of what you want to replace it with. If you're going with Vex/WCP, go to the Vex website and put together an order with everything you need. Motors, gear boxes, tubing, bearings, shafts, wheels, chain, sprocket, etc. That'll give you an idea of how much you'll be spending. Obviously, things can change (gear ratios, wheel size, etc), but that'll be a relatively small incremental difference.

If you aren't getting the drive train from AndyMark, there's still other things you can get there. Gearboxes, Redline motors, motor controllers, a spare Roborio... there's a lot of value there that you can use to start growing your team's abilities if you have that "free" money.

Personally, I would not opt out of the KoP chassis if I was a team that spent under $500 per season.
__________________
LRI: North Star 2012-2016; Lake Superior 2013-2014; MN State Tournament 2013-2014, 2016-2018; Iowa 2017; Northern Lights 2018; Great Northern 2018
Division LRI: Galileo 2016; Tesla 2017; Archimedes 2018
2015: North Star Regional Volunteer of the Year
2016: Lake Superior WFFA
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:21 AM
Sperkowsky Sperkowsky is offline
Professional Multitasker
AKA: Samuel Perkowsky
no team
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: A NYer in Indiana
Posts: 2,145
Sperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond reputeSperkowsky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

Αsk yourself why you want a West coast drive over the kop chassis? With your budget I really recommend keeping the kit chassis. Even with the voucher you will end up spending more and you already donít have much to work with.
__________________

Team 2869 Captain/Driver 2014-2017
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:25 AM
ollien ollien is offline
Registered User
FRC #5202
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Rookie Year: 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 564
ollien is a splendid one to beholdollien is a splendid one to beholdollien is a splendid one to beholdollien is a splendid one to beholdollien is a splendid one to beholdollien is a splendid one to beholdollien is a splendid one to behold
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

One thing you might want to consider is re-using some of the gearboxes from past years, which is legal so long as you disassemble them first. That way, you can buy a KOP frame from Andymark for ~$200, and still have $250 to boot.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:36 AM
Ryan Dognaux's Avatar
Ryan Dognaux Ryan Dognaux is offline
The Nature Bot - WOOOO!
FRC #1720 (PhyXTGears)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Muncie, IN
Posts: 2,909
Ryan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ryan Dognaux
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall View Post
Keep the KOP chassis.
Seconded. The kit of parts drive train is really a good value. With your budget I would absolutely keep using it and focus on what goes on top of it.
__________________
Ryan Dognaux :: Last Name Pronounced 'Doane Yo'
Team 234 Alum: 2002 - 2005 :: Purdue FIRST Member: 2006 - 2009
Team 1646 Mentor: 2007 - 2009 :: Team 357 Mentor: 2009 - 2012
Team 4329 Mentor: 2013 - 2017 :: Team 1720 Mentor: Current
STL Off-Season Event: www.gatewayroboticschallenge.com
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:40 AM
LukeB's Avatar
LukeB LukeB is offline
Registered User
AKA: Luke Brandes
FRC #4131 (Iron Patriots)
Team Role: CAD
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Rookie Year: 2016
Location: Washington
Posts: 186
LukeB is a name known to allLukeB is a name known to allLukeB is a name known to allLukeB is a name known to allLukeB is a name known to allLukeB is a name known to all
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux View Post
Seconded. The kit of parts drive train is really a good value. With your budget I would absolutely keep using it and focus on what goes on top of it.
Thirded. The KOP drive train is good enough for most applications, and the difference between mediocre and exceptional teams is almost always scoring mechanisms and manipulators.
__________________
FRC:
2976: Coach, Co-Strategy Lead (2016-18)
4131: Student Mentor (2017-??)
FTC:
13502: Driver (2017-18)
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:44 AM
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
Hungry Dawgs Run Faster
AKA: Sean Lavery
FRC #1712 (DAWGMA)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 7,627
Lil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Lil' Lavery
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

We spend our AndyMark opt-out voucher on the same thing every year:
http://www.andymark.com/NI-roboRIO-p/am-3000.htm

It's definitely worth it for us, and the value of having additional roboRios and electronics around is incredible. Having robots to use as development beds for your controls group and programmers is massive.

That being said, it costs more than $500 to build a West Coast Drive, so I would not suggest blowing your entire budget on a drivetrain when the KoP drive is perfectly adequate.
__________________
Being correct doesn't mean you don't have to explain yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 12:32 PM
GDG 2337 GDG 2337 is offline
Registered User
FRC #2337 (ENGINerds)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: us
Posts: 45
GDG 2337 has a spectacular aura aboutGDG 2337 has a spectacular aura about
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

We usually build a custom chassis every year and still take a KoP chassis. This year, last yearís KoP chassis was graciously donated to team that opted out and struggled with their custom design. As stated previously they are a solid investment.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 12:40 PM
johncooper johncooper is offline
Registered User
FRC #6072 (Triton Tech Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Rookie Year: 2016
Location: Newport Beach
Posts: 30
johncooper is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

A $500 robot budget is minimal and would require a multi-year investment for a WCD.

Our two speed WCD chassis cost $1,205 this year. This doesn't include tax or shipping. We did reuse gearboxes from 2017 which are included in this price.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 12:49 PM
Akash Rastogi's Avatar
Akash Rastogi Akash Rastogi is offline
Head Coach | Lead Mentor
FRC #5686 (Wirecats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Manchester, Connecticut
Posts: 7,458
Akash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond reputeAkash Rastogi has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

As a fellow low resource team - no.

Keep your KOP chassis if possible. If you opt out of the KOP and get the voucher, see if you can make a quick frame in the fall out of regular 2x1 instead. It doesn't need to be a WCD.
__________________
Jim Zondag is my spirit animal.

['18-'xx]: Lead Mentor FRC 5686
['17-'17]: Mentor FRC 2170
['13-'14]: Floating Mentor FRC 11/FRC 2495
['11-'13]: Founding Mentor FRC 3929 - 2012 World Championship Rookie Inspiration Award
['07-'10]: Student/Captain FRC 11 - MORT
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 01:03 PM
FrankJ's Avatar
FrankJ FrankJ is offline
Robot Mentor
AKA: The Bearded ONe
FRC #2974 (WALT)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Marietta GA
Posts: 2,481
FrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

You cannot build an equivalent chassis for $450 unless you already have a good bit of it from previous years. So unless you are changing wheels, gear ratios (IE not the gearbox that comes with the KOP) then you are really better off with the KOP chassis. It also sets a good bit of the design so you can concentrate limit resources on other issues.
__________________
If you don't know what you should hook up then you should read a data sheet
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 01:26 PM
Matt G's Avatar
Matt G Matt G is offline
365 --> 4039
AKA: Mattward
FRC #4039 (Makeshift)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 62
Matt G has much to be proud ofMatt G has much to be proud ofMatt G has much to be proud ofMatt G has much to be proud ofMatt G has much to be proud ofMatt G has much to be proud ofMatt G has much to be proud ofMatt G has much to be proud of
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

As others have said, it's probably a good idea to stick with the KoP.

If you state why you might be interesting in a WCD instead, perhaps some people on CD could give suggestions on how to achieve those goals with the KoPs drive base.

Andymark already provides a plethora of upgrade options, among them:
  • Various wheel types -- Mecanum, Omni, pneumatic, etc.
  • Various mounts and brackets
  • A pre-made superstructure
  • Belt-to-chain conversion kits
  • 3-cim gearbox

There are some other improvements that are a bit harder to find on the AM website but are easy to implement, such as adding encoders to the drive base, changing the gear ratios in the drive gearbox, modifying the dimensions other than the three "default" ratios, etc. etc.

I think it's cheaper, faster, and more reliable to adapt the KoP drivebase to achieve what you want, than to build a custom drivebase. You should be able to get pretty close to any other team's tank-drive style design with just the KoP. For instance, if I wanted 3310's 3 mini-cim omni drive, I could upgrade my KoP drivebase to use omni wheels, swap in a 3 cim gearbox, choose an appropriate gear ratio, and swap the cims for minicims. If you mounted 3310's superstructure to this modified KoPs drivebase, there are few people that would be able to tell the difference between the two from the stands.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 02:04 PM
Tom Line's Avatar
Tom Line Tom Line is offline
Don't lay blame. Fix probems.
FRC #1718 (The Fighting Pi)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Armada, Michigan
Posts: 3,132
Tom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it worth it to opt out of the KOP chassis for a low resource team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbeezy View Post
You could easily put the voucher to good use by getting plenty of compliant wheels, bearings, chain, pneumatics, electrical components, motors, etc. When I was with the team, we weren't low resource but used the voucher for those items since we built a WCD frame.

If you haven't already considered it, the kit frame can be useful as a test bed. Quickly get it running and use for prototyping. Also, having the same frame year-to-year can make things like building a practice bot more feasible.
The kitbot is fantastic for testing. If you have a wide kitbot and a narrow kitbot you've probably just covered 99% of your test cases. Add weight so they are at 120 pounds and they make excellent opponents for your backup drive team to drive and play D on your primary drive team.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:52 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi